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[mike88 + 257]

 

 

Can't say I'm too impressed, last one seems ok. They don't seem to know any techniques other than brute force!

Edited March 31, 2016 by mike88

[Sceptre + 2,704]

Because there are very few techniques apart from brute force which work under pressure given how infrequently we practice them - given they're wearing helmets this training is clearly geared towards the violent end of the scale not how to put a passively resisting person into a thumblock. Their training is better than ours just by virtue of proper sparring with instructors in redman suits as a form of stress inoculation training, which will improve officers' ability to think clearly, minimise panic and use measured force under pressure - something we don't get going through the motions at 20% effort with everyone watching the clock for an early finish.

[mike88 + 257]

15 hours ago, Sceptre said:

Because there are very few techniques apart from brute force which work under pressure given how infrequently we practice them - given they're wearing helmets this training is clearly geared towards the violent end of the scale not how to put a passively resisting person into a thumblock. Their training is better than ours just by virtue of proper sparring with instructors in redman suits as a form of stress inoculation training, which will improve officers' ability to think clearly, minimise panic and use measured force under pressure - something we don't get going through the motions at 20% effort with everyone watching the clock for an early finish.

We do exactly the same as them in OST training facing 100% resistance and are able to utilise arm/wrist locks, ground pins, takedowns. I don't think winging punches at someone's head who's offering passive resistance is an example of good training. 

Edited April 1, 2016 by mike88

[Remmy + 1,401]

Agree with Sceptre's  reply, unless you practice these techniques on a regular basis, under stress you have absolutely no chance of using them correctly.

One or two days a year simply doesn't cut it, all if does is tick a box for the CoP. 

Watching these videos it seems the instructors recognise the fact that in a violent, stressful situation your one objective is to win the fight by any means nessecary and quickly if possible. Then you can take a deep breath, call for help, reassess, descalt and go home and have a large whiskey 

Edited April 1, 2016 by Remmy

[Remmy + 1,401]

1 hour ago, mike88 said:

We do exactly the same as them in OST training facing 100% resistance and are able to utilise arm/wrist locks, ground pins, takedowns. I don't think winging punches at someone's head who's offering passive resistance is an example of good training. 

I have been an instructor for a number of years and found the exact opposite to be true, when you use 100% effort. We very quickly lose the ability to use unfamiliar or complicated techniques. Even drawing/using/stowing equipment such as a Casco or PAVA spray after a brief violent struggle can lead to amusing results for the spectator's. If you can remember and use some of the strikes that's useful, but like to see anyone not martial arts trained use a wrist lock or arm lock on a person giving anything like 100% resistance. In those circumstances you will just get battered with blows.

 

My experience is based on fit, experienced, tactically aware, firearms officers who know what's coming as they are wearing full protection.

 

Maybe your instructors idea of 100% and my idea of 100% differs slightly. Besides even my idea of 100% isn't the same as what say a decent boxer or cage fighter is capable of in real life.

 

[gallifrey + 588]

I tend to use five techniques more than any other so have spent my time over the years practising these and they are now pretty much second nature (Palm heel strike,elbow strike, knee strike, entangled armlock and gooseneck to the rear) but that is because I spend time training every week as well as one or two martial arts classes or lessons, if anyone is relying on the training we receive alone then they are going to be disappointed, using it as a building block and take some responsibility for practising techniques, its the the same as with fitness you don't expect a yearly fitness test to keep you fit, so why would you expect two days of OST a year to make you competent.

 

 

[mike88 + 257]

1 hour ago, Remmy said:

I have been an instructor for a number of years and found the exact opposite to be true, when you use 100% effort. We very quickly lose the ability to use unfamiliar or complicated techniques. Even drawing/using/stowing equipment such as a Casco or PAVA spray after a brief violent struggle can lead to amusing results for the spectator's. If you can remember and use some of the strikes that's useful, but like to see anyone not martial arts trained use a wrist lock or arm lock on a person giving anything like 100% resistance. In those circumstances you will just get battered with blows.

 

My experience is based on fit, experienced, tactically aware, firearms officers who know what's coming as they are wearing full protection.

 

Maybe your instructors idea of 100% and my idea of 100% differs slightly. Besides even my idea of 100% isn't the same as what say a decent boxer or cage fighter is capable of in real life.

 

I mean 100% as in giving their full physical effort to resist, not someone trying to take your head off with punches, of course I wouldn't expect anyone to put someone in a wrist lock who was swinging punches at them.

Do you honestly think the first video for example is a good example of use of force? The officer punches someone in the face who is moving backwards passively resisting then punches them repeatedly in the head on the floor, before hyper extending their arm. You really think their training seems so much better than ours? 

Edited April 1, 2016 by mike88

[Growley + 2,436]

20 hours ago, mike88 said:

Can't say I'm too impressed, last one seems ok. They don't seem to know any techniques other than brute force!

Well, frankly you're wrong. I've just sat through and watched them all and there was plenty of technique being used there. I saw some decent takedowns throughout the videos, as well as some decent ground control once there. Yes, there was probably a lot more striking than you'd like to see, but that's fighting unfortunately. In the US they don't have the same namby pamby attitude we have to policing.

4 hours ago, mike88 said:

We do exactly the same as them in OST training facing 100% resistance and are able to utilise arm/wrist locks, ground pins, takedowns. I don't think winging punches at someone's head who's offering passive resistance is an example of good training. 

I've done it, and seen dozens of other officers in this country do it, and literally the only people I've seen utilise proper takedowns are people who have a background in a grappling style. I didn't learn a decent single/double-leg in OST, I learned it in MMA. Unless your training centre is churning out MMA fighters, I'm inclined to believe that your claims are wildly exaggerated.

[Eddzz!! + 149]

The "funny" thing is that, in reality, none of these officers will be employing these techniques to subdue aggressive people - they'll be drawing their firearms

[Pete 1,492]

7 minutes ago, Eddzz!! said:

The "funny" thing is that, in reality, none of these officers will be employing these techniques to subdue aggressive people - they'll be drawing their firearms

this is from your vast knowledge on US police tactics because you've seen it on TV is it?

[Eddzz!! + 149]

3 minutes ago, Pete said:

this is from your vast knowledge on US police tactics because you've seen it on TV is it?

Nope, but it's what I'd do!  wouldn't you?

Edited April 1, 2016 by Eddzz!!
Added some context

[Pete 1,492]

2 minutes ago, Eddzz!! said:

Nope - it's just what I'd do! 

fair enough

[Remmy + 1,401]

3 hours ago, mike88 said:

I mean 100% as in giving their full physical effort to resist, not someone trying to take your head off with punches, of course I wouldn't expect anyone to put someone in a wrist lock who was swinging punches at them.

Do you honestly think the first video for example is a good example of use of force? The officer punches someone in the face who is moving backwards passively resisting then punches them repeatedly in the head on the floor, before hyper extending their arm. You really think their training seems so much better than ours? 

I see your point, but that makes no sense if your trying to arrest someone and they offer you 100% resistance, that means will do anything and everything to avoid just that. Chances are I won't wait till you take hold of me and start applying a wrist lock, I will try to knock you out first chance I get and make good my escape.

As for throwing punches I don't know enough about the training seconario (but it does seem fairly light hearted) and I certainly don't know enough about the use of force that's deemed acceptable in the states, to condemn the officer. However if you lose a fight whilst carrying a firearm the result could be getting shot with your own firearm, something to bear in mind.

Once the officer is on the ground in a violent struggle, yes I think the punches can easily be justified as can the arm lock. You definitely want to keep the advantage once ground fighting.

Lastly I didn't say their training "was so much better than ours". I simply offered reasons why it may be appropriate. Indeed we have done the same type of training, based on real experiences of operational officers and not instructors who preach from the CoP bible who have forgotten what it's like to police for real  

PS sorry but phone has gone mad and can't delete emojies 

[Sceptre + 2,704]

7 hours ago, mike88 said:

We do exactly the same as them in OST training facing 100% resistance and are able to utilise arm/wrist locks, ground pins, takedowns. I don't think winging punches at someone's head who's offering passive resistance is an example of good training. 

You do not do anything in OST at 100%, unless the instructors are biting, gouging, punching and kicking you hard enough to make you fear for your safety. When that actually happens, your techniques will go completely to pot and you'll probably end up swinging wildly or trying to cover your face. The first one is one of the less refined ones, but really there's aren't many ways to get someone down easily without a decent height or weight advantage - I'm eighteen stone and I've still had a good struggle with people to get them on the floor before. Strikes are all part and parcel of fighting people, blows to the head being very effective at making people curl up and stop struggling, and that wasn't a hyperextension at all but a ground pin almost exactly as you'll find in the Personal Safety Manual - you could argue for using pressure points to get the arms out but frankly that isn't going to happen when you're all hyped up.

That they have this sort of training at all puts them ahead of us. We have a book full of fairly practical techniques most of which we're never taught because nobody has much confidence that if they headbutt someone or kick them to the kneecap and break their leg that the job wouldn't go after them.

[mike88 + 257]

''Well, frankly you're wrong. I've just sat through and watched them all and there was plenty of technique being used there. I saw some decent takedowns throughout the videos, as well as some decent ground control once there. Yes, there was probably a lot more striking than you'd like to see, but that's fighting unfortunately. In the US they don't have the same namby pamby attitude we have to policing.

I've done it, and seen dozens of other officers in this country do it, and literally the only people I've seen utilise proper takedowns are people who have a background in a grappling style. I didn't learn a decent single/double-leg in OST, I learned it in MMA. Unless your training centre is churning out MMA fighters, I'm inclined to believe that your claims are wildly exaggerated.''

I've seen plenty of people in redman scenarios being taken down using techniques taught in OST, it doesn't take an MMA fighter to put someone in an arm bar and use pain compliance to get them to the floor. Of course a lot of the time it just ends in doing whatever you can to get them to the floor, not disputing that. We'll have to agree to disagree on the techniques in the video then, but my opinion is swinging punches at someone backing away, passively resisting or baton striking someone's leg who is punching you repeatedly in the face aren't good techniques to utilise.  

I'm tired of UK officers moaning about British policing as being soft (I agree in public order it is), but in general policing I believe it's only soft if you're bad at justifying your actions. Reasonable force allows for whatever you can justify.

 

2 hours ago, Remmy said:

I see your point, but that makes no sense if your trying to arrest someone and they offer you 100% resistance, that means will do anything and everything to avoid just that. Chances are I won't wait till you take hold of me and start applying a wrist lock, I will try to knock you out first chance I get and make good my escape.

As for throwing punches I don't know enough about the training seconario (but it does seem fairly light hearted) and I certainly don't know enough about the use of force that's deemed acceptable in the states, to condemn the officer. However if you lose a fight whilst carrying a firearm the result could be getting shot with your own firearm, something to bear in mind.

Once the officer is on the ground in a violent struggle, yes I think the punches can easily be justified as can the arm lock. You definitely want to keep the advantage once ground fighting.

Lastly I didn't say their training "was so much better than ours". I simply offered reasons why it may be appropriate. Indeed we have done the same type of training, based on real experiences of operational officers and not instructors who preach from the CoP bible who have forgotten what it's like to police for real  

PS sorry but phone has gone mad and can't delete emojies 

No it wasn't you who said there training was better, sorry that wasn't directed at you personally. 

1 hour ago, Sceptre said:

You do not do anything in OST at 100%, unless the instructors are biting, gouging, punching and kicking you hard enough to make you fear for your safety. When that actually happens, your techniques will go completely to pot and you'll probably end up swinging wildly or trying to cover your face. The first one is one of the less refined ones, but really there's aren't many ways to get someone down easily without a decent height or weight advantage - I'm eighteen stone and I've still had a good struggle with people to get them on the floor before. Strikes are all part and parcel of fighting people, blows to the head being very effective at making people curl up and stop struggling, and that wasn't a hyperextension at all but a ground pin almost exactly as you'll find in the Personal Safety Manual - you could argue for using pressure points to get the arms out but frankly that isn't going to happen when you're all hyped up.

That they have this sort of training at all puts them ahead of us. We have a book full of fairly practical techniques most of which we're never taught because nobody has much confidence that if they headbutt someone or kick them to the kneecap and break their leg that the job wouldn't go after them.

 I already said, the instructors don't try to injure you but they will use all of their strength to break away, passively resist, prevent you from cuffing them and gaining control. The training in these videos is almost identical to what we do except the officers don't wear head guards. 

Yes I agree in an actual fight where someone is trying to take your head off a lot goes out of the window.