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Showing most liked content since 18/11/17 in all areas

  1. My Investigation

    If you step off of your pedestal for a moment you might learn something from officers who have alot more experience of this policing model than you. I went from a force where I dealt with prisoners and crimes only occasionally and not as my core remit to a force where I dealt with crimes up to and including PIP level 2 crimes whilst also being a reponse officer/general dogsbody. You will lose time for proactivity. Your investigation skills will improve but you will find that due to your multi role requirements you won't really be able to do anything more than pay it lip service. You will file alot of jobs you actually think are worthy of secondary investigation and you will investigate alot of nonsense you wish you could file. Rather than being easier now to hand over clearly defined crimes listed in a 'crime allocation policy' you will, despite policy and all the circulars, be left holding the baby dealing with GBHs, high level drugs jobs and domestics. If you weren't already missing refs you will be now and your supervision may start to struggle to juggle between being operational and looking after your crimes- you may in fact have supervision dedicated to overseeing your crime work and go down to a single operational skipper. You will start to struggle to get time to progress your crimes or complete casefiles (casefiles which are ever more complicated as you take on the role of file builder, disclosure officer, exhibits officer) because as you are on team the control still see you as an asset for outstanding I grades. You will likely think 'this system could work BUT we need more resources on team.' But hey, what do I know, I'm not in the Met so I probably don't know what I'm talking about.
  2. Don't we already have some kind of front line volunteer police roles? I'm sure there was some kind of Special Police officers that did work for no pay. Don't quote me on that, might be wrong.
  3. In truth, I don't see what a "representative workforce" actually accomplishes. Members of the public rightly expect to be treated by the police in the same as any other member of the public regardless of their gender, race, disabilities or orientation. I see that as a two way street - You should be able to be dealt with fairly by any officer regardless of those characteristics. The bottom line is let the people who want to be police officers apply and allow their success to be on ability alone. These campaigns to encourage or assist people from different backgrounds applying are a waste of money. It has always been my view that when someone dials 999, they don't care if the person who turns up is a purple martian as long as he/she is fair and competent.
  4. I'm sorry, what? Since when is a life threatening situation required to justify a strike to the face? Its just another tactical option.
  5. I have been subject to years of complaints from various use of force. I'm not surprised that officers are fearful of acting robustly in their own defence. Investigations take ages, the decision as to if you acted correctly is subject to endless scrutiny and all it takes is someone to disagree with your reasoning or perception and that's you done. The old saying is judged by 12 rather than carried by 6. If only it was only 12. When you add psd, IPCC, pcc, press, cps, any random member of Parliament and your internal discipline panel. That's probably more than 100 people with their own views and agenda. All judging one moment of one day where you were doing your best.
  6. It's not the role of the police to enforce moral and ethical standards.
  7. My Investigation

    When I joined (in 2008) we used to carry crimes on team: it was never more than about 4 or 5 crimes and they were all pretty low level and straightforward. Frankly, I think it made me a better police officer. It made me appreciate what was relevant and what wasn't when I first responded to incidents and I did a better job as a result. I also learnt how to process investigations, handle disclosure, conduct interviews and so on - all the way up to being an OIC at Crown Court (all as a response cop). I'm in favour of it - in principle. The problem is that I don't trust the Met to resource it properly. The drive to this model is cost-cutting rather than truly for the development of staff. As such, I think it will probably be a disaster.
  8. Could somebody explain to me the magic screening process the army employs which allows them to recruit and train individuals in literally every role (HR clerks are firearms trained) which the police have missed a trick on? Having completed the army recruitment process and savoured at least some of phase 1 training then completed the police recruitment process on several occasions and then police training I can't see with regards to psychological suitability any advantage the army has other than you need to be able to do as you're chuffing well told and the higher standards of fitness and discipline lead to greater resilience. I would suggest if the Army's style is beneficial we should be looking to emulate rather than simply separate.
  9. I have explained clearly why there is a direct comparison. There are other sporting options available to draw comparisons with. However if you do not play contact sports you will not understand the relevance of the comparison and so actually you WILL be in a worse position to interpret. If you do not regularly employ force in situations where there is a distinct time cut off between the permissible and a foul then you will not be able to understand the subtle niceties of the situation. I will see if perhaps a policing context clears it up for You? Have you ever struck somebody with your baton? If So, due to their movement during the strike have you ever hit a slightly different target area than you aimed for? It is a similar phenomenon. In layman's terms there is a difference between hitting someone on the head with a baton on purpose and hitting them on the head because they moved forward during a strike to their arm. If you would like any further breakdowns I can be contacted by PM.
  10. Row over 'smell of cannabis' police stops

    More or less. It was rather bizarre though. The advice wasn't from our on legal services department nor from any of our retained firms (at the time I worked in a department where I had a lot of dealings with all of our legal firms so was aware of how it all operated). When I looked up the lawyer's name I saw that they were from something of a "campaigning" organisation which could potentially be described as somewhat "anti". (I can't for the life of me remember the organisation at the moment though). The only authority they could give to support the assertion that smell-alone could not be grounds was a Canadian Judgement which they acknowledged was persuasive and in no way binding). It was highly suspect they couldn't find any English and Welsh case law. However, even that didn't stand up to scrutiny: wanting to get to the bottom of it I actually went ahead and read the original case - R -v- Janvier 2007 from the Saskatchuan Court of Appeal. What the judgement said was that "smell alone" did not give grounds to arrest, but reading on it was clear that the level of proof needed to arrest in Canada is "probable cause". The level is akin to what we would call "reasonable grounds to believe" or even our charging standard. The judge actually said in that case that the officer should have performed an "investigative detention" - a concept which we don't have but is based upon suspicion! Essentially, it vindicated the view that "smell alone" could form reasonable grounds to suspect for a stop and search! The advice from the College of Policing is bizarre to say the least. My own theory is that it is a political move to reduce searches of BaME persons. My working theory (based on anecdotal evidence and nothing else) is that cannabis is often the recreational drug of choice amongst many BaME young people as opposed to Class A (coke) or alcohol amongst many white young people. The advice, therefore, is designed to reduce cannabis searches and directly impact on the numbers of BaME people being searched. I think that this advice should have been judicially reviewed (funded by the Federation) when it first came out - the grounds being that it fetters the discretion of police officers. On the face of it I think that such a threat would have lead to it being withdrawn as I cannot see it standing up to judicial scrutiny. It would have been (even more) egg on the face of the College. However, the Federation seem unwilling or unable to flex many muscles in the courts with this sort of thing.
  11. Interesting that those of us who have faced a threat to life regularly in the past two years are majorly in favour. Surely we are the people whose voices should resonate. I don't want to go into too much detail but there is information to suggest that a couple of years ago a firearm was discharged at or in the vicinity of my colleagues and I. At the time we believed that the noise was a firework or a motorbike backfiring but several sources later suggested otherwise. That was a turning point for me. In between that incident and one recently I have faced several situations where a firearm would have been reasonable to have been equipped with. The recent one was attending a housing estate where a male liable for recall to prison had 'gone mental' and armed himself with a knife stating he would take out police attending. I found myself alone on foot conducting an area search in winding alleyways in all honesty really hoping I didn't find him. Had I encountered him in those alleyways he would have easily killed me. There was no ability to maintain any kind of reactionary gap and hiding places to ambush a solo police officer were plentiful. We requested NPAS and they declined because we didnt have a full containment. When the dog van turned up and stayed in the car I had a 'sod this' moment and went back to the car. I wouldnt consider myself a nervous copper or afraid of a scrap but I'm not suicidal. As each year passes my self preservation instinct strengthens. And for every p-poor prison sentence I see passed down for serious violence I realise it's just not worth it.
  12. Re: specials, I imagine we can say with some certainty that all the while firearms are limited to select groups, there is no way they'll be carrying. I'd also hazard a guess that specials would not be armed until some time after routine arming came in. That's not to say I agree with it, I just think that's realistically how it would be.
  13. Row over 'smell of cannabis' police stops

    The legal basis is an interesting comment. I recall an incident where I stop searched a vehicle and found cannabis and a knife on one of the occupants. The grounds for the search were due to the smell. They were never challenged in court or pre charge and I remember the CPS prosecutor saying to the magistrates “the vehicle smelt strongly of cannabis and therefore searched.” PC wannabe - I’ve worked in drug rife areas and I’ve never known of the smell to transfer to innocent MOPs clothing or mine (unless I’ve been in a factory). Sounds like what I used to say to my mum when I started smoking cigarettes and didn’t want her to know [emoji2]
  14. Row over 'smell of cannabis' police stops

    Mr Cooke has always encouraged us to use stop search if we can smell cannabis and suspect the subject has cannabis in their possession. I understand other forces are advised not to do so. If you pulled a vehicle over and smelt cannabis from the driver would you drug wipe the driver? I would.
  15. Rumour mill was that BTP was at one point looking at introducing a sidearm course for a personal self defence weapon in line with Northern Ireland... Heard about it and then like most other things it disappeared. It makes sense to me that there would be a wider firearm roll out - I've said it before but not every incident or guard requires a fully trained AFO with all the tactical gear including long arms, black baseball cap, tucked in combat trousers in boots etc. Its too impactive - I dont see an issue with a normally dressed beat officer in a custodian carrying a 9mm pistol on their hip... In Britain its all or nothing, there needs to be some middle ground.
  16. How about more officers than in 2010, all armed?
  17. To be fair if you're dealing with someone who isn't feeling any pain due to intoxicants your options are pretty limited. Also someone like me who discovered in training that most pressure points don't work when you try them.
  18. http://www.2drj.com/single-post/2017/05/24/Res-gestae-in-domestic-abuse-cases A good explanation here.
  19. That's impossible though. How do assess the view of a whole country? We tried it and found there is no single view by the UK. Sure 52% of those who voted at that time said leave but that is no indication of their separate views over security, sovereignty, immigration, the economy, farming policy, legislation etc etc. And many more people did not vote to leave, so although the result was the result under the terms of the referendum that in no way means that it represents the view of the whole country.
  20. BBC: Damian Green porn row: Police in 'dangerous territory'

    But this is not 'the police' reporting something they are tasked to investigate. This is an ex cop who decides to tell a story years on. I repeat the question - prosecuted for what? What offence under the Computer Misuse Act is suggested here? A colleague of mine was sacked for accessing legal porn on a work computer. Sacked for gross misconduct - no criminal offence committed.
  21. BBC: Damian Green porn row: Police in 'dangerous territory'

    Prosecution for what? Sure it's not professional etc to view porn on your work computer but it's not a criminal offence unless the porn is illegal stuff, and every report says it's not illegal. I've not read everything about this but I am puzzled as to why a former officer feels the need to report 10 years after the event that he saw something legal on an MPs computer. If anything it is more likely that the former officer has acted illegally by disclosing sensitive information.
  22. Combat trousers

    Buy some trouser twists? Surely supervision won't mind as a temporary measure. If at all. You can then cut about pretending you're firearms and hand jobs to your local colleagues
  23. And if she were told to foxtrot oscar the officer would be stuck on for incivility.……*lengthy sigh*
  24. Combat trousers

    I can quite believe that some people do whinge and moan about uniforms. Those are likely to be the same people who give dirty looks when an officer manages to get 3 minutes spare in a shift and grabs a cup of coffee, or the same person who moans that you don’t have time to discuss their parking dispute because you’re being called to another grade 1 or the person who whinges that they don’t get a 10 minute response to someone who dared to call them a name on Facebook. I won’t go on. The point I’m making is no matter what we wore these people would generally find something to whinge about. It’s just a fact. We aren’t here to be on a fashion parade or to satisfy other people’s fashion desires. We need kit that is fit for purpose and comfortable. Strangely I never hear these people whining about Ambulance and fire brigade wearing the kit they wear, I wonder why that is? Maybe less of an axe to grind? At the risk of sounding rude if people really have time to worry about what we are wearing then I would suggest it’s unlikely they really NEED the police anyway. I’d be far more concerned with the actual service given to the public and the way an incident or crime investigation is dealt with.
  25. They can apply to be PCs. Having spoken to numerous PCSOs about it, i’ve never heard a decent reason they can’t. it’s always “I already get paid the same to have an easy life/better shifts/not work nights”. Well, tough, the gravy trains ending, you’re going to have to pitch in and do some work. Linked article says it’s got to the point now where a fully fledged PC only costs £1800 a year more than one of these PCSOs. Ridiculous.
  26. Post your incapacitant spray or baton

    My first baton or truncheon as it was known at the time Never should be seen unless as a very last resort and lived in the special pocket of my woolen trousers. After that I had a Monadnock PR24 and then an MX21 and then an ASP. Now I just run away, well I say run I mean bimble really.
  27. All evidence must be reviewed and all lines of enquiry, no matter where it takes you should be explored. I’m not sure where the confusion is and why people think this shouldn’t be so. We conduct fair and impartial investigations. Phone downloads can be huge but when you are dealing with this type of offending then like it or not, you have to go through it - at least that’s my interpretation and what I do. That’s what the public, the victim and the suspect would expect, not corners to be cut because the OIC doesn’t have time. This is probably, in part, the reason why D’s are stressed out to the max. Mersey it would appear that you applied some common sense and wrote it up as such. If the CPS were not ok with it then it would have either been an action pre charge or post when they or the defence have gone through it in more detail. There is a line that I always have in the back of my mind when writing files or reviewing evidence, in that “nothing is being done with the intent to deceive the courts.”
  28. And that is the unpalatable truth of such allegations.
  29. Specials first shift tips

    Cake, take cake. Not scav cake off the pound rack, good ones. I erred on the side of caution and got a couple of packs of the good cupcakes from Sainsburys.
  30. To be honest I’m amazed that they are saying the OT was only 5m. When I was with BTP it was non stop overtime, paid rest day working for no reason and this was across the force. There was a culture of forced overtime. No one could ever explain or justify why there was a need for the extra hours or cancelled days off, just because. On the flip side the change in rosters after the demand review were a mess in most places and have lead to officers routinely working 12 hour shifts. There was a study done and BTP tried to adopt a directed patrol plan which was a complete disaster. They had officers standing in a spot, walking 10 paces and standing in another spot for 15 minute intervals. The data that was used to make up these plans was sometimes 5 years old and officers weren’t allowed to use their knowledge or experience to seek out problem areas or deal with people. Efficiency is a non existent term. Imagine preparing an MG5 and 6 and uploading numerous documents individually to a system even though the person is eligible for a D and D ticket, insisting on a file being completed for cautions and NFA’s and having to phone for advice for any charging/disposal decision. It could take 3/4 of a shift to record, prepare a file, wait for advice and then issue a ticket for a d and d. The issue with BTP is it is very poorly managed and many of the senior managers seem very naive at times. I think that there could be a lot of improvements. Unfortunately this is why myself and many others had to leave the organisation. BTP was a great force when I first started with them, emphasis on solving problems, fairly efficient when dealing with things, freedom to deal with people and a nice culture. It all went a bit sour when Mr Crowther took over the top job. Of course people will most likely disagree but it is just my opinion, it isn’t intended to be a BTP bashing, far from it. It could be a very good force with a change of leadership.
  31. what’s going to be the criticism you hear most tomorrow? whatever agenda you’re pushing then? there’s thousands less cops and much more crime now, it’s not possible to send cops to see victims just to cheer them up now, they’ve got too much to do. if i go and visit a victim now to cheer them up, there’s somebody else calling 999 on my area being attacked and no cops to go. so we prioritise. you’re going to have to accept it and move on.
  32. BTP Student Officer Recruitment 2017

    The usual response. Take it up with the guys at Spring House...
  33. Step in the right direction if it happens, but not enough. All officers should be armed On a less serious note:
  34. What do you consider to be the difference between 'discussing' and 'picking apart'? On this forum, the latter seems to be used as a generic response when somebody actually analyses the content of their post, and they don't have an answer for it. It's good that people have differing viewpoints, but everyone needs to be resilient enough to accept that people can and will disagree with them from time to time. Additionally, we all need to accept that some opinions, contrary to popular belief, can be wrong.
  35. If someone is biting me then I won't be searching for the appropriate pressure point and giving a warning or anything. I will be striking them immediately and in the most effective manner possible. I have been bitten before and punched the person immediately. Pressure points are good for resisting and for non compliance. Not for someone actively seeking to harm you. In my opinion. Obviously.
  36. Sorry, certainly not meant as a personal attack however this is one of the most ridiculous statements I’ve seen. You can’t say you would NEVER use a punch. How do you know? Have you never heard of distraction strikes? Where were you trained? I have been through OST in 3 forces and all cover punches, knees and kicks. I do agree it may need more justification if the person if cuffed, however, it’s a huge misconception with a lot of officers that when someone is cuffed they’re not a threat. Quite the opposite, if they are biting or head butting for example they are equally dangerous. I find with more experience and the more you deal with nasty individuals who are immune to pressure points and pain in general you will start to look at things differently.
  37. I get laughed at because I travel in civvies. I do it because I'm normally parked away from the station, and prefer not to advertise on my way in. Walking the back streets if Blackpool in half blues would be asking for trouble.
  38. Crime, crime and more crime

    The numbers and stats being chucked around here are just fodder for gutter press headlines but really do very little to explain the reality of the situation. Firstly, it is in the interests of no police officer to under record crime, because there is no sense in manipulating data to show they are less busy than we are when in fact they are considerably overworked. The casual onlooker reading the BBC article linked to above would likely and understandably believe that many thousands of vulnerable people are being let down continually but if this was actually the reality we would certainly be seeing police officers disciplined and dismissed all over the place which isn't the case. I think the public need to be educated that a lot of recorded crime is a result of textbook application of the rules to situations where common sense used to be applied and people just told to grow up, like the sort of rubbish that you see on Jeremy Kyle etc. I think one should remember that it was only a couple of years ago that a certain force was being ridiculed in the press for recording a domestic assault. I don't remember the exact circumstances but it was along the lines of an argument between a family over dinner and food was thrown and hit one of the diners. This was ripped to shreds with comments along the lines of "nothing better to do", "catch real criminals" yet this would clearly come under the textbook definition of domestic abuse with a crime of assault, and Lancashire are one of several forces who have been pulled up over this. The police are damned if they do, damned if they don't.
  39. On face value maybe it wasn’t the best place to stand being directly in the firing line so to speak however I highly doubt that that officers were thinking ‘glass is about to go everywhere’. Just to add I am not criticising the cops here, it could have happened to anyone, myself included. It’s easy to look at this in hindsight though from the comfort of an armchair. I suspect though that you would be horrified by the alternatives which would involve quite a bit of force being applied to the detained person in the situation. What is concerning here is the motivation for your comments, are you trying to mitigate for the criminal? What are your credentials? Have you been involved in such a situation? Have you been involved in confrontation/violence on a regular basis?
  40. You are required to watch your prisoner at all times in case they harm themselves, ingest something, tamper with evidence, discard items, attempt to escape etc etc.
  41. What exactly is litter?

    It would seem whoever have the powers to fine for littering pick on the easy targets. I cannot stand littering but I’ve never fined anyone for it. I’ve challenged people over it and on every occasion they have picked their litter up and put in a bin. The idea of making a person pick up an additional two pieces doesn’t sit well with me at all. Many inner city areas are full of litter. Why don’t these wardens patrol these areas and do something about it??
  42. Specials Uniform Issue

    Don't get anything. Do some operational shifts then decide what you need - don't perpetuate a specials stereotype by having every bit of gear known to the universe.
  43. Because there's already not enough people chipping in with their hindsight.
  44. @obsidian_eclipse I agree, I think this is one of the reasons the country is going the way it is. We have a completely inept government in place with no real strength or power due to all the infighting and incompetence. The opposition is simply unvoteable. They are like a comedy act and there just isn’t any alternative. The party politics is also becoming ridiculous now, there is no view on what is best for the country and the people, it’s all about point scoring and taking comments out of context. Its frightening the way things are going.
  45. Hopefully I’m not going to offend anyone here but I really don’t get this. Why would someone be a volunteer PCSO? What would the motivation be? It just sounds like a gimmick. I’m not convinced that the standard of recruit will be that good. The option of a Special Constable is there if you wish to volunteer and help the local community and has done for many many years. Policing really is a sinking ship.
  46. With corbyn in charge we'd probably have had a larger budget but be given the task of planting flowers on housing estates. I don't particularly trust any of the politicians in the labour/conservatives camps. It's like choosing between a clown and mime artist for a funeral. It's no surprise that we've been handed an even thinner slither of a budget. If anyone can explain in any fashion what 'protected in real terms means' when inflation devalues money and there's in the region of 6% less in the pot I'd be happy to listen. It's all meaningless words to me. The brexit issue is somewhat of a red herring if anyone believes one of the largest contributers to the e.u should be paying to leave. It is a separate issue infact that is wheeled in as a coverall. It will be the excuse for everything that occurs from now on, used for addressing the failings of a incompetent government who couldn't negotiate their ways out of a paper bag. The only reasons they end up in big business as consultants after being MPs is due to the amount of palm greasing they have achieved in office, not because of their skill set.
  47. Discrediting the role isn't an attack on individual officers. We've had this discussion before but it is very obvious to not only me but the vast majority of serving officers and public that the way PCSO's are used and deployed across the nation hasn't been great value for money... Regular posters on here know my opinion on this issue and I served as a PCSO but even I can objectively look at the role and see how largely 'weak' it is, offering little value for money.
  48. I’ve been saying this for a while, it’s not doom and gloom but a fact. Policing in Britain is not sustainable. The majority of existing officers are running on empty and everything is creaking and shaking. What worries me the most is even a sudden increase in funding which won’t happen, wouldn’t even stop the rot. It would probably maintain the status quo. The only way chiefs and politicians will actually listen and take note will be when some notable tragedies take place. It’s disgusting but true. The same can be said for the majority of public services. I wish the government and chiefs within all services would understand that this is simply a false economy. I get that there was a financial crisis and I fully agree the majority of forces wasted money, therefore I agree some savings could be made. The issue I have is with the ideological punishment of the police service and other public services. Even the most loyal Tory cold not argue against that surely? It frightens me that future generations will be far worse off to actually fix this mess wilfully being caused by this government. The only thing that makes me feel a little bit better is that this Tory government (2010 onwards including the coalition) will be seen throughout history as a complete disaster, weak and pathetic. The rest of the world see us as a laughing stock and luckily the Trump circus has at least distracted and deflected a little. The weakness of the Tories will doom us all. Maybe more sad is the fact that there is literally no opposition, the only thing more hilarious is the joke of a Labour Party. Britian certainly isn’t great, and it will only get worse as the decline of public services continues, poverty worsens and dare I say the word Brexit!?

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