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Showing content with the highest reputation since 22/04/18 in all areas

  1. I think it's safe to say that anyone other than the criminal is losing, or has lost, faith in the courts and judicial system.
  2. When I first joined Sir Ronnie Flannigan had produced a report on police bureaucracy and there was going to be a drive to reduce paperwork. It’s increased beyond comprehension and that report seems to have disappeared. I would agree with you on the vulnerability comment. However, I think it’s a reflection of where certain aspects of policing are and the #### covering culture that exists. As I’ve commented on other threads there is a culture of recording because it’s easier than not to. We also have a culture of blame and where everything must have an outcome, whether that he from response incidents to PSD. I would like to see a cultural change but that won’t happen anytime soon whilst pressure groups or journalists continue to influence policy. I would agree with the comments in the article about short term decision making. Some that I’ve witnessed it truly atrocious but persons at senior level who make such decisions are never accountable. Money wasted just so someone can claimed to have changed something in order to get promoted. There seems to be a distinct lack of strategic long term decision making. The job is and always will be the best job in the world. I feel very privileged to do it and will promote policing and back policing wherever I can. The biggest change in my service has been the cuts and erosion of neighbourhood policing and proactive policing. I don’t think we are feeling the full effects yet. But it’s the small things that often matter the most to people that isn’t being “policed” which is leading to a lack of public confidence. There is also, in my opinion, a tidal wave of cyber crime and cyber fraud waiting to hit us. We are well behind with regards to online investigators and IT infrastructure as a whole. In summary I would like to see the NPCC lead the way to culturally change the police and stand up to pressure groups and politicians. There are far too many people willing to knock the police at every turn. That and investment need to change.
  3. Shame the findings that the officers used reasonable force doesn't get into the headlines at all... On 30 July 2017 at approximately 1.10pm, a number of West Midland Police officers conducted a vehicle stop check in Aston, Birmingham. Cannabis was discovered and two occupants who were in the van stopped were detained. A man who had been watching the police incident appeared to be reluctant to move when asked to do so by officers and a verbal altercation ensued. Independent footage obtained showed the man being kicked in the leg by one of the officers before being sprayed by incapacitant spray and stuck several times with a baton. He was then taken to the floor and handcuffed by officers. It is alleged that the man made several offensive remarks to the officers prior to his arrest. During the investigation, investigators served regulation notices on three officers from West Midlands Police. The Investigator interviewed the officers. The Investigator attempted to make contact with the man involved in the incident, but he failed to respond. We looked at West Midlands Police force guidance/policies, as well as the independent mobile phone footage obtained from the internet. Based on the evidence available, our opinion was that the force used by the officers was necessary, proportionate and reasonable throughout the situation. We found no indication that any person serving with the police may have behaved in a manner that would justify the bringing of disciplinary proceedings. https://www.policeconduct.gov.uk/recommendations/alleged-use-excessive-force-west-midlands-police-july-2017
  4. I can understand by today’s standards that they are not acceptable but you can’t turn the clock back and hang these individuals out to dry. I just don’t understand these women. They seem to feel that they were somehow entitled to fulfill disclosure. How long does it take most women to figure out they picked a ‘wrong un’. It’s a better scenario than finding out that the partner was a serious criminal or engaged in domestic violence. How can you can upset about someone you had a sexy time with 20 years ago? It isn’t a form of abuse; it’s a case of a female lacking perspective.
  5. And if he was a PC he'd be enjoying collecting a PC's salary. What's your point?
  6. An essential part of morale. You aren’t told how some members of society live in squalid conditions or how many people abuse substances. That was a real eye opener for me. Or how th cops are left to carry and back fill other public services.
  7. I can't see how he could have said anything but what he has. Clearly the cuts have not been such that the force is unable to cope with such a huge policing event. He would look very silly if the Force is all set up to police the Royal Wedding and he goes to press saying 'we can't cope with this, we don't have enough officers' etc. What would have been interesting would have been if the Chief Constable had said to Harry, 'Sorry old chap but can you hold your nuptials elsewhere because I don't have the resources to be able to guarantee your safety.'
  8. I don't understand where this belief that openly smoking drugs in a public place is ever acceptable - I deal with such offences proactively when I encounter it. Cannabis possession is a recordable, technically either way offence that won't go time barred... If I encounter someone smoking it openly in public such as the station front, taxi ranks etc they will get reported unless it's a first time offence and they'll get a PND or Caution. If they've had any other contact for drugs they'll go to court. I've currently got two cases on the go where I've recovered cannabis off of persons that is going to the local magistrates, the impact factor being openly smoking the drug in public infront of passengers/commuters. Cannabis does cause damage to people, the young men I see especially who are chronic cannabis smokers all suffer from extreme anxiety with their mental states being beyond paranoid, they tend to operate cognitively slower... I certainly don't believe it is the wonder drug many on the left try to paint it out as being.
  9. Mac7

    Amber Rudd resigns

    This was inevitable. She was hanging on by a thread. Some of the interviews given by ministers defending Rudd were shameful. If you have chance watch the interview given by Brandon Lewis on the Andrew Marr programme yesterday. He should be utterly ashamed of himself trying to defend someone who have lied. However, she was continuing the policies implemented by her predecessor. That’s where the real blame lies. While she had “made her bed” so to speak by misleading the select committee, she had also been scapegoated to protect the PM who is the real culprit. I would like to see Theresa May face questions from a select committee or be subject to a inquiry over windrush.
  10. Beaker

    Amber Rudd resigns

    It should,. but they'll just parachute another "Yes" person in who can parrot that everything is fine, and not to worry.
  11. He MAY be suggesting it, but TBH I'd suggest most of us are thinking it.
  12. I work on the assumption that the courts system simply doesn't work. My low expectations mean that I'm never disappointed. I like to get my payback in small ways. For example, whenever we go to court outside of our normal duty times, we are compensated with a fixed fee no matter how long we're actually there. So going to court on a day off means a one-off payment of around GBP 225, even if you're there for 10 minutes. On the other hand, if your trial drags on into the afternoon and you're there until 1301hrs, you get GBP 450. Also, because parking is free, I like to do a bit of shopping afterwards. With apologies to the few genuine victims and civic-minded witnesses who, through no fault of their own end up getting roped into this farce, the absolute joy I get on these occasions, knowing the justice system is failing and STILL getting paid, is difficult to express.
  13. You do show an alarming ignorance of the Law, Legal system, and legal process. You post like a supporter of Freemen of the Land who we all know accept no other opinion than their own, irrespective of statutes of the land.
  14. Nobody told me about the endless NCALT's.
  15. When I started in security at 18 I thought the same. I felt like I had to prove myself and I could tell I was being looked down on by anyone ever 25. The key is don't try to prove yourself, you'll just end up as a jumped up newbie that causes more problems than they solve, I see it happen a lot and I was there myself. Fortunately I moved elsewhere and had a good enough team that brought me down a few pegs (as unfair as I thought it was) but then built me back up their way. Don't try to prove yourself, just learn and do the job as best as you can.
  16. Off the opposite way I'm older than half of the regulars I work with, and some assume that i'm way more experienced than I am. I have to explain that while I'm old I'm also very green.
  17. I thought that police officers were guardians of society. Trusted to act with discretion and common sense. I thought police officers were allowed to be honest about their opinions. I found out police officers now police by numbers (a reference to painting by numbers), to a predetermined flow chart. The absolute requirement for every policing action is not that it is Just, fair, reasonable, common sense or in line with public/victim wishes - it is that a computer system is able to audit it for statisticians. I then further found out police officers are meant to only follow the sway of popular media opinion and in line with the Government of the days tune.
  18. Four officers question how the IOPC could have got it 'so catastrophically wrong'. (L-R) PC Matt Garfitt, PC Jamie Williams and PC Steven Gorman Almost two years ago a man choked to death after swallowing a package of drugs during an arrest attempt. The death, filmed and uploaded to social media by Bedford residents, shocked the community and turned the lives of the four police officers involved upside down. One is still struggling with diagnosed PTSD and stress related symptoms. Documents seen by Police Oracle show the Independent Office for Police Conduct (IOPC) “reviewed” evidence for gross negligence manslaughter and unlawful act manslaughter at least twice during its 18-month investigation into the arrest and death of 48-year-old Bedford man Karl Brunner on May 11, 2016. Now Bedfordshire PCs Jamie Williams, Steven Gorman, Matt Garfitt and Mark Griffiths are to receive a chief constable’s commendation to recognise their professional conduct during the same incident. The Karl Brunner inquest In January, just a few months after the officers learned criminal charges had been dropped and misconduct proceedings had ceased, an inquest into the death of Mr Brunner held at Ampthill Coroner’s Court returned a verdict of accidental death. The court heard how Mr Brunner, known to his friends as “Yankee”, was a known “swallower”, and officers from the central tasking team, planned to use the element of surprise in their arrest strategy and mitigate the risk of him swallowing drugs. But the strategy was foiled by a pedestrian who warned Mr Brunner and his friend “Finchly”, shouting “run”. As the officers struggled with Mr Brunner, he forced a golf-ball sized package of drugs into his mouth, which lodged just out of sight in his trachea. Jurors were told Mr Brunner was a vulnerable man at the bottom of the chain who was exploited by calculating drug lords and may have faced debt bondage or enslavement to his boss if he lost the drugs. PC Williams told Police Oracle he was on good terms Karl and had known him since he’d moved to Bedford five years ago. “We used to have a little bit of banter with him. He would be so polite. “My personal view on this is that it was a tragic incident.” Manslaughter? A document sent to Bedfordshire Police Federation on December 5, verified as legitimate by the IOPC, entitled “Brunner criminal offences decisions review” lists five offences; misconduct in public office, Section 7 Health and Safety, ABH, gross negligence manslaughter and unlawful act manslaughter, each with a separate “decision” and “rationale”. The document states the IOPC decided to “review this offence further (both manslaughter listings) further to the receipt of the post mortem report in conjunction with all of the evidence obtained”. Detailed analysis of why manslaughter offences would not apply to the officers are laid out below the decision. It refers to the post mortem report, CCTV footage and witness evidence and says there are “no grounds to reasonably suspect that the actions or inactions of the officers significantly contributed to the death of Mr Brunner…there are no grounds to suspect a breach of duty of care". “So when it did come out and all the charges were dropped it just proved although they served some papers in the background they were looking at us for manslaughter. And that’s when it hit home,” PC Williams said. “That card was not taken off the table for 15 months of the investigation. Everyone says you’ll be alright but psychologically with that hovering over you it was horrendous,” PC Gorman added. “As an investigator if you’re not under arrest for an offence we wouldn’t be writing the rationale. They served us papers on ABH. So that would be my starting point but the fact is they’ve started right at the top.” Coroner Martin Oldham, who conducted the inquest, wrote to Bedfordshire Police Chief Constable Jon Boutcher to praise the officers for taking “action of the highest possible standard” in their attempt to save Mr Brunner’s life. Bedfordshire Police Federation Chairman Jim Mallen said even one of the jurors called him to say how “impressed he was by the evidence”. “It just goes to show the jury listened attentively to the evidence and formed an opinion that these four are absolutely telling the truth without a shadow of a doubt. “How can the IOPC get it catastrophically wrong time after time? “The toll on police officers is something that people disregard but they’re human beings.” Are you sure you’re allowed to ask me that? All four PCs say they were “appalled” by the calibre of IOPC inspectors assigned to their case. But there’s one particular interview question which left them infuriated. During the course of the Karl Brunner investigation, a second investigation was opened into a case of mistaken identity involving six out of the eight (PC Garfitt was not involved) central tasking team officers. About 15 months prior to Karl’s death they were sent to arrest an armed robbery suspect, known to be violent and ruthless. The arrest was thought to be successful - until it emerged the team which supplied the CTT with instructions had identified the wrong man. The officers say the victim of mistaken identity made no reference to the incident being racially motivated in his statement and did not have any injuries. PC Gorman said: “In the questioning the person asks, from my understanding, there were three white men in one van at one end of the road and three white man in another van and you’re jumping on a small black male, what reasons could there be for this other than this is racially motivated? “I’ve been served no papers for anything to do with racism or anything like that and the person certainly hasn’t complained about it and it’s like what gives you the right to ask me questions about this when you haven’t even told me I’m being investigated for it? “And then that’s when Jim steps up and basically says you can’t ask questions like this. “It just made me really angry, disappointed, p*ssed off.” For PC Williams, being questioned about racial prejudice is the part that “still sits raw with me to this very day”. “He could have been green. He could have been red. He could have been blue. We’ve acted on the information that’s been given to us. We’ve treated him to the threat level displayed to us and that is purely the reason he was detained that day, not because we were out looking for a black fella.” Mr Mallen added: “The reality is there wasn’t a shred of evidence to support what it (the IPCC at the time) was suggesting. It formed the race issue itself as an organisation and it says more about it then it will about the police service I think.” All the officers were cleared of the excessive use of force allegations. They say the entire investigation was marked by delay and confusion, with the lead investigator changing twice. PC Gorman said he was shocked when investigators he spoke to told him their previous job was in unrelated fields such as IT or shelf-stacking at a supermarket. “It’s almost like they’ve got a set of questions to follow. In my example a pre-prepared statement - it took them about ten minutes to read out, put it to one side then just go through the crib sheet of questions,” PC Williams said. “Any investigator worth his salt would know you stop the interview there, go and read it, [the statement] cross check it against what they want to ask you. “It doesn’t fill you with much confidence. If we’re being investigated, let’s do it properly, investigate me properly, let’s get to the bottom of it,” he added. “They came in [after Mr Brunner died] and demanded certain things from us, like our clothes. It was good to have Jim there because he was able to ask their rationale behind certain things, taking things off of us which they couldn’t give us the answers for. All they could say was 'just in case'.” PC Gorman says he still cannot see how the IOPC can justify the lengthy investigation. “It’s frustrating to find that people have been investigated for numerous burglaries, for example, and they are dealt with within a week. Yet this seemed to take 18 months to investigate what was pretty much given to them as a full package within 24 hours of the incident.” PTSD is nothing to be embarrassed about “I’m still under occupational health because I’ve got ongoing anger issues because of the way the investigations left me and PTSD. “I don’t think there’s anything to be embarrassed about. Plenty of people have it and it’s good to highlight the levels of stress that officers and officers’ families are put under,” PC Williams told Police Oracle. “I found at the start I wasn’t able to worry about myself because I was having to worry about the knock-on effect on the family. “My partner, she was affected quite a lot by it. She’s in the police too -she used to work with somebody whose partner went through an IPCC investigation. “So she developed stress-related symptoms because of the constant worry. “Because I couldn’t think of myself it wasn’t until a year later when everything had calmed down my mind starting thinking ‘bloody hell’. That’s when I got diagnosed with PTSD.” PC Gorman says the ordeal cast a cloud over what should have been one of the most joyful times of his life - his wedding and the birth of his first child. “It just put a horrible taste on everything. “I find myself being more emotional than I usually am. My wedding speech was literally full of tears and I was never like that before.” For PC Garfitt the investigation has left a “bitter taste" in his mouth. But none of the officers can fault the support of the force - CC Jon Boutcher was with his officers within hours of Mr Brunner’s death and “set the tone” for the rest of the force, they say. What would you say if IOPC director general Michael Lockwood came for dinner? “I’d tell him to get his house in order,” quips PC Garfitt. “Not only did they not manage to get any criminal charges. We’re waiting for a commendation from our chief constable for our good work.” PC Gorman added: “Not all police officers are bad guys. I think that was the main thing I took away - it seemed to me that they automatically thought we were guilty of something. “In my opinion, it did not seem to be impartial.” Mr Mallen said the four officers’ experience will strike a chord with many officers who have encountered IOPC investigators. He said: “We recognise as police officers if someone dies following an interaction with the police, it’s right and proper there should be a robust scrutiny of the facts of the matter. “But it’s not necessarily a default position that the police officers are to blame for what has happened. “Unfortunately these four and other officers I represent are often left with that view the IOPC is out to achieve some sort of outcome. “Very rarely is it a deliberate pre-conceived thought process. That’s not what police officers are about. They come to work every day to help people.” The IOPC released a statement in January saying its investigation was completed in November 2017 and the report would be published in due course. At the time of writing, the report has not been released and a spokesman for the organisation said he could not put a date on its publication. The IOPC declined to be interviewed for this article or to provide the report into its findings but released the following statement: “In the early stages of the investigation after review of the initial evidence gathering and prior to receipt of the final pathologist’s report (which we did not receive until May 2017) the investigator believed there were reasonable grounds to suspect that offences may have been committed. These potential offences were: Misconduct in Public Office (MIPO), Actual Bodily Harm and breach of Section 7 of the Health and Safety in Work Act. It was decided that any suspicion that the offences of Gross Negligence Manslaughter (GNM) and Unlawful Act Manslaughter (ULM) were committed was not reasonable and the officers were never under investigation for these offences. “Following receipt of the final pathologists report and review of all the evidence then available the investigator reviewed all the possible offences in connection to this incident, including Gross Negligence Manslaughter and Unlawful Act Manslaughter and decided there was no indication/reasonable grounds to suspect that the offences of GNM or ULM may have been committed. “It was in accordance with their training and the IOPC Discrimination Guidelines to ask the questions relating to whether they treated him [victim of mistaken identity] any differently because of his race and/or ethnicity. All six officers were white, the man arrested was black, and an asylum seeker. Our investigators are trained to ask questions about the rationales for officers’ behaviour and to identify whether these may have been influenced by any protected characteristics of detainees, and had they not done would potentially have left some questions unanswered." The officers were not shown their Body Worn Video footage ahead of the inquest because there was not enough detail in their stage three accounts and the IOPC "wanted an untainted account which set out their honest held belief of any actions or decisions during the stop, restraint and medical assistance of Mr Brunner”. “We do not withhold BWV to trip up the officers in any way and explain to them that we do understand there may be discrepancies between memory and recorded footage,” the statement said. Chief Constable of Bedfordshire Police Jon Boutcher said: "This is the saddest possible story and the thoughts of the force and especially the officers involved are with Mr Brunner's family. "It should be remembered that these officers came to work that day to do their best in keeping people safe and were working on a street drugs operation seeking to remove drugs from Bedford. "In doing their job this tragedy unfolded and the officers did everything they could to save a man's life. "The subsequent investigations and implications of how such matters are conducted often leave police officers feeling like criminals when all they have done is their best to keep us all safe. "My heart goes out to the Brunner family and I also commend the officers for doing all they possibly could to save his life that day. "It is also not lost on me what those officers have been through." View On Police Oracle
  19. What does the officers ethnicity have to do with it?
  20. That makes no sense at all, how does imposing compensation for valid loss to a victim on a convicted criminal 'adversely affect one group over another?' Also: "The state being given the means to affect one persons freedom over another is big brother." Just what do you think a prison sentence is? It makes no sense - a civil court is still a government court it is a separate legal process - you're going through a trial twice only a criminal court has a higher burden of proof for guilt at common law - again just what would be the point Pavilion? If someone has been convicted criminally, they are civilly guilty of the offence. To be frank your opinion is incredibly naive, your system would only benefit the incredibly wealthy who could block such action easily.
  21. This is deplorable and a simple apology doesn’t cut it for me. If the tables were turned the IOPC would be wanting a scalp and pushing for misconduct proceedings. Yet the fed and the IOPC think an apology with suffice? Disgraceful. These officers would have had their careers and personal lives on hold while this was carrying on. That cannot be underestimated. It’s time the IOPC realised there are human beings behind uniforms and they cannot be treated like this. I hope they are considering legal action over this and look to set a precedent.
  22. Good topic and I’m sure there will be many different views on this depending on role, length or service and which path people want to go down within their careers. I can’t comment a lot on what happened with any great authority pre 2007. I’ve been involved in policing since mid 07 and have worked in 3 different forces from a SC to a PC now. I may get shot down here but I have certainly noticed a big difference particularly in recent years. As a service I think we have shifted to the left. I get that this reflects society as a whole. I don’t think we got to grips with the social media culture, many forces are poor when it comes to PR and I think this played a part. We are run by bosses who are weak willed usually and more bothered about what the looney activist has to say than people at the coal face. Policing in general now is far too risk averse. Nobody dares to make a decision and all we think about is the what ifs. My biggest bug bear is the word ‘vulnerable’. This is the most overused word we have particularly in the last few years. Nearly everyone is vulnerable (of course some forces will deal slightly differently), but because it’s so overused it’s almost becoming meaningless. Because someone is classed as vulnerable we jump through hoops to investigate non existent crimes just to say that we have done something. I would like to clarify that genuinely vulnerable people of course do deserve an enhanced service and support from us. We fill in for numerous other services and again whenever we question this the stock answer is ‘incase it goes wrong’, even though it shouldn’t be the Police that would be accountable anyway as it would be a failing from another service. The biggest difference at the moment to 10 years ago is of course resource levels. In many places now we are a token presence. We don’t have the resources or will frankly to tackle anything, we just sort of keep the lid on it. We are discouraged from arrests, discouraged or unable to do anything proactive and unable to properly investigate anything. I think the frustration now is that for your average working person who calls us they are so far down the list that the service they would tend to get is laughable. Its not all bad, but I’m sure a lot of other front line officers will see where my post is coming from.
  23. Fedster

    We all deserve much better policing than this

    I cant take this video seriously, its edited, taken out of context and this lady seems to be just provoking the member of police staff to say something controversial for her video, maybe he should have worded his answers better, maybe he should have not got drawn into a debate about religion, but what are we supposed to take from this video?

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