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  1. This happens pretty much every year, our wages never go up beyond inflation and we inevitably lose purchasing power. There is no appetite to pay us more, the politicians don’t want to, the public already think we’re paid enough and the federation are a toothless dragon that doesn’t push hard enough for us. It’s just the way it is. Nothing will ever change!
    4 points
  2. This thread has gone way off topic to the point that I am not sure what is being discussed. Topic closed
    4 points
  3. This is part of the problem though. We are people who make it work even when it’s broken. Teams at minimum staffing?….it’s okay we will run about like headless chickens to meet demand and oh so important target times. No vehicles?……it’s okay, we will send someone to another nick to pick some cars up. File needs sorting?…..it’s okay, we will stay late, in our own time to get it done because otherwise it won’t happen. The Cons tell their Sgts that their at breaking point, their workloads are too high, they don’t get clerical, they can’t possibly do all this disclosure nonsense, the vehicles are all shagged, the IT is so broken they cant do their jobs, they can’t get leave and that civvie street during a global pandemic seems like a better option. The Sgts pass it on to the Inspector who pass it on and on and on. It eventually reaches the Chief Con, his bagman says “Sir the moral on the frontline is a bit low, maybe send out a patronising email to cheer them up next week” and that’s the solution to the problem. Nothing is ever addressed properly. It only works because we make it work, no other reason. If we stopped, it would fail. Every single year our earnings in real terms are reduced, I think since I joined, I have lost 16% of my salary or something daft because of inadequate increases. To my knowledge, they have always been below the rate of inflation. Im deskilled and indoctrinated, I simply cannot leave. It’s like an abusive relationship.
    3 points
  4. Cheers again for all the above. useful to know I’m not just bitter and that lot of people have same views on management etc. After a Few more days of settling on it I just think it’s a case of seeing if the new job has more pros thans cons. Early days but already been asked how I’m doing by managers more time than I ever did in the police however still lots of doubts and negatives. I get points made about closing chapter but when I left it was always in my back of my mind I’d consider coming back if try alternative wasn’t substantially better (maybe a unhealthy of doing it but it is what it is) Have a lot of sympathy for you Jack, I probably wouldn’t go quite as far as you in my view of job but understand where you are coming from. having left now I’ve realised how much of a blur the last few years have been. If anyone is reading this thread I can’t stress enough how important it is to have a break and reflect, even if you love the job. Whilst I’ve been fairly lucky in the sense I’ve kept semi healthy, kept my friends (even though it was frustrating how little they understood my job) etc etc I’ve really noticed how much the job can take over your life. Obviously any job can lend itself to rat racing but I think the 24/7 nature of the job, coupled with the way you view your experience I’m terms of how many years you have in is scary. I’ve realised that I was trying to survive for 6 days, knackered on 2 rest days and spent 2 rest days trying to cram in social activities with taking them in and actually enjoying them. I don’t think it’s all doom and gloom but I’d just advise people to slow down and take stock. I have so many mates who worried about getting through their two years, then worried about courses and permits now worry about that side way move or promotion but for what? Despite all the doubts and overthinking I’ve already done more meaningful activities and enjoyable with friends and family in last few weeks than I probably did in last few years. Maybe it will wear off and the pay cut may eventually become an issue but my point is the job gives you tunnel vision.
    3 points
  5. No. She was found to have not done anything wrong and her decision making and record keeping for the short time she was in command - she took over 20 mins before he was shot - is held up as an example of good practice in the National senior leadership training. I doubt there has been a Commissioner of the MPS who was not involved in an incident that resulted in serious consequences. Should they have all been not appointed? Perhaps there is no one suitable to hold that office?
    3 points
  6. One of my favourites, for shear balls is: Man orders Chinese take away on his own mobile phone number, delivered to his own house. Man gets delivery at the door and takes food, tells the driver won't be a minute, just getting the money. Man takes the food, empties it out of the delivery tubs onto his dinner plates and puts the lids back on the delivery tubs before returning them all into the bag. Man goes back to the front door and tells the delivery driver the order is wrong, I don't want it now. Delivery driver dually takes the bag back from the man and goes back to the restaurant. It's not until the boss goes into the bag to see what the problem is that they realise the bloke has taken all the food out the tubs and given them back empty packaging!
    3 points
  7. So you know that they spend at least 80% of their time frontline policing rather than in a class room. Also, that they get sent out frontline policing after 20 weeks (similar to what it always has been), and they have to show the same level of competence in policing as cops always have to be signed off as competent? In short they have to do pretty much the same training as cops always have just more of it. So why do you think more and better training is such a bad thing?
    3 points
  8. Those anecdotes prove absolutely nothing about anyone except the people in question.
    3 points
  9. Some people seem to have a very skewed view of university. If someone joins the job after having been in banking or a landscape gardener then they're OK, but if they've come from university then they must be some kind of wet behind the ears snowflake? Perhaps some of the skills required of a cop, say, objective reasoning, are not being shown in this thread. Just because a person has a degree, it doesn't mean that they don't have other life experiences. One could (A) work a hard part-time job with early starts, get one's degree, go into banking, then decide to be a cop. Versus (B) leave school, go into banking and then decide to be a cop. Is the non-degree candidate automatically better than the 2:1 BSc? I also see a lot of people refer to a degree in Modern Dance (etc) and ask what good it is, as if the only requirement is the degree. Candidates still need to pass the other initial criteria, get through Training School and their Probation. It's not like their reading of Greek classics gives them a pass to become a PSU Sergeant without passing Go and collecting £200. Lastly, many of the cops I know already have degrees. They didn't need them to get in, and they're very good cops who don't shy away from conflict, nor hard work. They own workloads and look for solutions, put together decent files for a very demanding CPS (which is largely staffed by degree holders), respond, deal with violent criminals, use tasers, are public order trained, and they are successful in what they do. But the fact that they have degrees blows a hole in the myth that degree holders, somehow, cannot, or are less likely to, make good cops. Many of the arguments about the current 'crop' seem to be more to do with the selection process than with the fact that those selected have degrees.
    3 points
  10. The den of snakes votes through poorly thought out legislation. The police act on it, having previously been lampooned for not doing so. The den of snakes blames the police for carrying out its poorly thought out wishes. Do they really think we can't see their misdirection as an attempt to hide their incompetence? Spineless. Cowardly. Slopey-shouldered. Lacking leadership.
    3 points
  11. And in a country with one of the least motivated criminal prosecuting body and most lenient courts when it comes to sentencing. You REALLY need to be offending so violently and consistently to be this over-represented, especially when there's 0 political gain (or fallout) to be had in custodial sentences for Travellers, so by and large, probably a very accurate and objective representation of their cultural attitudes towards crime and general law-abiding mentality.
    3 points
  12. Allow me to put it into perspective. Most frontline officers are carrying 30+ crimes and are still expected to attend emergency incidents. So, yeah, you've have a name to complain about but your crime isn't getting solved any quicker. But...and here's the important part...it looks good on paper and wins votes.
    2 points
  13. I think some would call it a loss of identity, members of the military are a good example of this. You belong to a community that in some respects is insular for many reasons, after all how can your civilian friends understand the stress and strain of your occupation. The highs are off the chart and the lows are filled with such misery and hurt that expecting members of the public to understand is pointless. First you should accept that, that part of your life is done and that’s not something to be sad about, you did something many could never. You helped more people than most people will ever in a lifetime. That’s something to be proud of, when you reflect just remember the good you did. Poor leadership is ultimately what results in the loss of people from any uniformed organisation, unfortunately people aren’t paid for preforming, they are paid for a rank, that ultimately means (for many) their ego and arrogance leads them to be horrendous leaders, lacking determination and not inspirational in anyway. There are loads of roles out there you could do with similarities where you would get to use your investigative mindset, but don’t ever expect it to match the adrenaline you had previously.
    2 points
  14. We are here to enforce the law by any legal means. Phones, documents, it matters not. If someone wants to live by information from Wiki then they might be in for a nasty shock sometimes. I took an oath to Protect life and property, to Prevent and Detect crime and to prosecute offenders against the Queen's Peace. That is what I did without doing anything illegal. If people want to commit offences then they should be prepared to accept the consequences.
    2 points
  15. Sorry for being quiet for a long period. so, I have finally completed my training after being injured in February due to OST 🤣. but I managed to finish the intensive course and I think the word “intensive” is the correct wording. I think overall the quality of the training was fantastic, the trainers were so invested in ensuring we pass our exams and assessments. It was really a great environment. it’s a rather sobering moment when you realise the next stop and search or arrest will be in public. but the whole journey this far has been fantastic.
    2 points
  16. I'm rural, I know I'm 20 minutes from backup at best and basically not at worst. I have never felt the need for a firearm, if I had one in the car I couldn't use it, if it was on me, then I may have given the suspect a gun. But what do I know about it. I would like a couple more colleagues, maybe some backup. That would be nice. We are at half strength on a good day and it's never a good day.
    2 points
  17. 2 points
  18. Personally having thought on this for the last 24 hours and speaking with a student in the canteen today. I think the issue is not the degree programme per sé. More a change of culture, whereby upward insubordination/a lack of discipline is acceptable and an attitude of “I’m not doing that” becoming acceptable. Rather than - and before anyone says it I don’t mean following instruction blind - doing what you’re bloody well told if you agree or not and being toughened up. I remember finishing my 10 weeks tutoring and being told “you’re going single crewed as often as possible”. I remember thinking I don’t know anyone, I don’t know what I’m doing, you k**b “Sarge”. But it did me the world of good and made me think for myself and makes decisions and mistakes that I learned from. Now it’s “let’s look after those young in service so they don’t make any mistakes”. They don’t because someone does it for them and not do they learn by their observations. Then they start tutoring the next generation…And added in to a less realistic and less confrontational training and you create the perfect storm. I fear for frontline policing and the high standards that should be expected and demanded. It ain’t pleasant out there and don’t try and pretend Sandford world is.
    2 points
  19. The headline should actually be: “MP expects police to derelict their duty because of her position, then unfoundedly accuses officers of racism”. The mind boggles at what people think is acceptable these days. Why anyone would expect Police to ignore possible suspects because of their race and taking something they say on face value is just an idiot. Personally, I’d be stopping and speaking to anyone in a bright yellow jacket, regardless of race. Skin colour can easily be mistaken due to lighting, shadows, whatever. Bright yellow generally isn’t.
    2 points
  20. Its interesting that she immediately jumped to the conclusion that racial bias played a part. My reaction as a PC is the same as the MPS i.e. tall IC3 male in a yellow jacket had been reported or seen doing something so they stopped the man and whether the MP said she was an MP or not, they ruled him out and left. Being an MP had nothing to do with that result whereas ruling the man out did.
    2 points
  21. My biggest concern about the degree programme is not that someone gets a qualification from it. It’s more the fact that students are not going to be prepared properly for life “on the beat”. It’s a tough world out there and the world of Sanford or whatever it’s called is nothing but fantasy. When I was at training school the best teachers were not those who were academics whose idea of confrontation was an arm wrestle in the student Union. It was the ex bobbies who told you it straight and how it was going to be. In fact the former were the worst, trying to treat you like a primary school child whilst telling you how to deal with a domestic they’ve never been to. The truth is we shovel a hell of a lot of #### and much of what we deal with is crim on crim; or you are being used as a pawn in a game of one-up-man-ship between two warring parties. That’s when the common sense comes in. And it won’t be taught because very few police officers are qualified academics, Drs or possess a degree. So it’ll be left to the theory men. I get we need to know the law, knowledge is power and you need to be able to tell Clever Dick your powers and what you’re doing when he opens the door saying “you need a warrant, mate”. The truth is - and I say this to newbies - you’ve got to toughen up quickly because people ain’t going to be nice to you. They’re going to exploit every perceived weakness in you and make your life as difficult as possible. I fear university life will make a snowflake generation melt.
    2 points
  22. It's like a bad novel. What a waste of space the lot of them. If an organisation is that bad that it's own PSD needs another PSD to look after it, it must be bloody awful to work for.
    2 points
  23. I know you weren't quoting me but personally I see the IOPC as being politically driven rather than independent, slow, incompetent, unsuccesful and if their court results are anything to go by they often get proven to be wrong. They also show a reluctance to let go when things don't go their way hence the reputation as a second or even third bite at the cherry organisation. Yes we need an independent organisation which can oversee genuine complaints from the public about our service but the IOPC has been shown time and time again as not being able to provide that and instead of concentrating on their core function and getting that right they seem intent on expanding their remit.
    2 points
  24. I wonder if that is a thing that is put into practice in France? Morally speaking, yes you should. Sometimes folk say "don't put yourself at risk/into danger", well my answer to that is, some things are worth risking yourself for, e.g. saving a life/assisting someone in distress.
    2 points
  25. Not to forget that the MP's have never had to face a bunch of Protesters, some who are peaceful interspersed and joined by those whose sole purpose is to cause a confrontation and the use of violence. As Indie said, if there is any blame then it is down to those who make and pass the legislation; now who could that be, I wonder.
    2 points
  26. There is no such offence or no such legal duty by members of the public to act, with the exception of failing to assist a constable. Which I imagine would be near impossible to prosecute today as soon as someone said they didn’t feel safe doing so.
    2 points
  27. Well the blade in the report was a Samurai-style sword, not a small knife. The Police are regularly facing allegations of focusing on Black Youths. These two reports show that that does bring results, unpalletable as it may be. A six moth sentence will be worn as a badge of honour in certain gang communities.
    2 points
  28. The offender was arrested after a "Stop Search" of a vehicle carrying Black Youths and the offender already had a Court injunction against him banning him from carrying any weapon. In another report on this site (https://news.met.police.uk/news/man-jailed-for-drugs-offences-following-vehicle-stop-430489) there was a similar outcome where at another Stop Search of a Black man brought about a 16 month sentence. Perhaps it shows the benefits of Stop Search.
    2 points
  29. And there but for the Grace of God go I. As a PC anyone of us could be in Monk's shoes on any day of the week and what this case has shown is that there are slim margins when it comes to the use of force. It looks like 2 things led to the guilty verdict and those were the two kicks to Dalian's head and the third use of taser for 33 seconds which the Judge said was unlawful. I feel sorry for Dalian's family but equally I have sympathy for Monk and his family. I've got to wonder what failings if any in the NHS led up to Dalian's behaviour on the night, but as usual its been the police under scrutiny for his death and not what fault if any led to that night.
    2 points
  30. Cuts have consequences 🤷🏻‍♂️ That and some archaic ways of working, life is more expensive all round, policing isn’t an exception. If the police doesn't modernise, the courts continue not to punish criminals and your recruitment is aimed around nice statistics instead of the best person for the job. Then something has to give, which is why forces aren’t accurately recording crime all over the country.
    2 points
  31. @Paigetony, have a look on NCALT for the personal safety manual as that's the authoritative source for us. There's quite a few modules on handcuffing.
    2 points
  32. Whilst I'm sure there are plenty of resources out there I would strongly advise against adapting your own style from them - as @Ether +has very rightly said you should really attend a recognised course or reach out to the your OST trainers if in the job who can either point you in the right direction or have you attend and speak with them directly. You could find yourself in hot water should you handcuff somebody and it's either not a recognised technique or you cause injury or harm as a result.
    2 points
  33. Stop and search works in driving down street crime and the carriage of stolen or unlawful items. The country needs more of it not less. Im sure someone will argue it doesn’t, but history tells us otherwise, in fact it’s so effective it’s why militaries use it in conflict zones to deny the enemy Freedom of movement.
    2 points
  34. I never understood this as an argument against incarceration. To me it's a very strong argument in favour; get the children away from the criminal behaviour and influence of the parent. I'd like to see someone advocate that a father convicted of s.47 and controlling and coercive behaviour against his wife should be spared a jail sentence because his victim is on her death bed due to unrelated issues and he is the only remaining relative. I think female offenders get far too lenient sentences on the basis of their motherhoods, in complete disregard for the negative impact their criminality is having on the children, especially when it involves trafficking drugs!
    2 points
  35. Don’t disagree with any of what you said, my point simply was the pay isn’t particularly bad. Public sector workers are all suffering.
    1 point
  36. TWO off-duty police officers have been hailed as heroes after saving a four-year-old's life when he started choking on a chicken nugget. https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/1467691/police-officers-save-boy-choking-chicken-nugget Well done to both officers saving the boys life.
    1 point
  37. Part of my point is that we currently have a collective panic if a suspect could possibly have a firearm, let alone use one. But if response or neighborhood carry on person, there is a firearm at every job. And while I'm reasonably capable of handling myself, I am frequently single crewed and have been knocked unconscious by someone who blindsided me at a neighborhood dispute. Firearms officers are double crewed, can't do prisoner transport. We could all be trained better, with better kit, more support, resources and a functional criminal justice system, but we ain't and I don't think guns are the way out of that problem.
    1 point
  38. I think the big problem comes with the government/bosses looking at pure number of incidents/crimes v the number of officers, which is what happens. This might seem a sensible correlation as there are more crimes/incidents and - in my experience having worked both urban and rural - more violence and violence towards/anti police sentiment in urban areas. The issue always comes when the wheel comes off. And in the above scenario it’s a massive judgement call to take out Mr Gobby and see if his mates jump in or leg it. In rural areas you have to back each other up more and cross invisible borders to support each other.
    1 point
  39. I'll never forget a colleague of mine stopping a van full of lads who had been out stealing on his own for a search. He called for backup but this being BTP out in the sticks it was 20+ minutes away. Anyhow one of these lads turned around to him and had the brass to actually say "You're on your own out here with us aren't you?" apparently with this grin on his face. Rural policing doesn't get the kind of investment it really should, travelling criminals and crime groups taking advantage of slow response times and lack of adequate policing on the fringes of counties aren't a good mix.
    1 point
  40. The problem does not lay with the troops on the ground. It stems from poor management and leadership from Command. The new Chief Constable has a mammoth job to turn it around, made even more difficult because he has the same senior command team behind him. He has the same senior officers heading the CID. He inherits a I.T. system that does not work which has cost millions. GMP are under Special Measures as being, perhaps, the worst ranked Force. But on the bright side, in the "Stonewall" rankings they are ranked first. Perhaps those two facts say a lot. If Senior Officers speak out and try and point to weaknesses they are ignored and are find that they have just committed professional suicide by speaking out. I know of several Senior Officers who have found themselves in that position. I believe that the failings of Senior Management have also been highlighted in the Manchester Arena enquiry. Just about every agency failed and the only people receiving any credit were the officers arriving on the scene and trying to cope with a situation with little or no back up for an inordinate period of time. Gold Command have failed abysmally.
    1 point
  41. Let us just say ignorance is bliss and leave it at that.
    1 point
  42. @XA84very good advice, i haven't forgotten the time when someone cuffed my wrist in the wrong place in a take down, it put me in agony and i had to work the next day. But i would mainly like to say a few words about the last bit of your letter. I’m going back a bit but I always recall getting shouted at big time once by a trainer when they were testing us [“close that latch”] because i failed to close up the first dangling clasp when un cuffing . I knew i should have and usually do but just forgot on this occasion. He was specifically watching for this i think and i wasn't the only one that did it that day. He demonstrated to the class the damage that could be inflicted by the sharp swinging latch to anyone nearby if not in full control of the detained person. Good job i had told him to put his free hand on his head otherwise it would have been very embarrassing. I am of the opinion [if you don’t want any pack drill round the gym] that there is no substitute for actually practicing a few times, and without deviation, the official force procedure on some willing partner. ha. Rich.
    1 point
  43. I think you are warping what’s being said, my experience is that it’s not particularly expensive per phone as the equipment is already owned, granted the initial cost of setup it expensive. If you re read my comment it’s caveated with it’s my experience not a catch all of costs. You are talking about an old case and a case that had public interest, things like iPhones have been accessible for years, but to admit so before a high profile case would be suicidal from an intelligence perspective. If you think the police are the forefront of info gathering you are mistaken. There are other methods of getting that data on the phone that don’t involve opening the physical phone. The use of s49 is heavily regulated and only used for serious crime, hence the focal points and limited ability to authorise by specific people. You believe s49 should be removed yet you can’t provide a single example of when these powers have been misused or used inappropriately
    1 point
  44. Not knowing the facts of the case I can only assume there would be some issue regarding her caring for children or an elderly relative? I agree that a spell inside should have been the order of the day for her. If she chose to mix with the criminal elements of society, then she should be doing her porridge! 😡
    1 point
  45. Yes. Sometimes the police are in the wrong. Most of the time they are in the right. Police allegedly in the wrong makes for better TV and press than doing it right. I’ve never seen the headlines ‘Cops swoop on burglar, conduct a lawful search under Sec 1 PACE and recover stolen property.’ Stop and search is an emotive subject and has and will continue to be discussed to death. I can’t imagine this thread moving those discussions on.
    1 point
  46. Or deem it completely fake news based on it not featuring on The Bill 🤨.
    1 point
  47. 0.1% of the population yet make up 5% of prisoners. Feel free to draw your own conclusions.
    1 point
  48. PNLD response to my question about auditors attending police stations. "Whilst it is legal to film police officers on duty, any filming beyond the confines of the public area would only be permitted with prior notice and the permission/authority of the officer in command of the policing area. Where prior permission has not been obtained then there is the possibility of offences being committed, including: Knowingly / recklessly obtain or disclose personal data without consent of controller – section 170 of the Data Protection Act 2018 The offence criminalises the deliberate or reckless obtaining, disclosing, procuring disclosure to another and retention of personal data without the consent of the data controller. Photos of police officers or vehicles would amount to personal data for the purposes of the Act. As such, there is a chance of this offence being committed in the circumstances relating to both the taking of a photo and any wider distribution on social media. Obstructing a Constable - section 89(2) of the Police Act 1996 If the filming interferes with an officer's work, the offence of obstructing a constable could be considered. Harassment - section 1 of the Protection from Harassment Act 1997 If this person's actions are regular and ongoing, the offence of harassment could be considered, under section 1 of the Protection from Harassment Act 1997. A police officer can be caused harassment, alarm or distress; however, there is a higher threshold in relation to police officers. The basic principle is that a police officer cannot be alarmed etc. by conduct which, although it would alarm others had they been present, is conduct a police officer meets regularly in the course of their duty. They are expected to be able to cope with 'everyday' misconduct without being particularly alarmed etc. Terrorism Act 2000 Dependent on the circumstances and a person’s reasons for taking photos of officers and their vehicles, there may be a risk of offences being committed under Terrorism legislation, namely section 58 / 58A of the Terrorism Act 2000: Section 58 – offence to collect/make record of information likely to be useful to person committing or preparing an act of terrorism or possessing a document or record containing information of that kind. Section 58A – offence to elicit, publish or communicate information about members of the armed forces or of the intelligence services/constables. We hope this assists. , Kind Regards, PNLD"
    1 point
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