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MrJ

Speed Enforcement - Two or more constables as witness

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MrJ

I hope someone may be able to offer assistance for this and maybe some experience if applicable?

 

I recall seeing at some point a clause in some legislation regarding speed enforcement where it stated that if two or more constables formed the opinion that a vehicle was exceeding the posted speed limit that they could be done for speeding in place or using a calibrated device (LASER, speedometer, etc). I have absolutely no idea where I saw this only that it stuck in my mind.

 

Is this correct and if so is there anything more to it?

 

Thanks!

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Chief Cheetah

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Sceptre

We discussed this a month ago here

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BlueBob

There are lots of ways of dealing with excess speed. The previous one was a solo officer supported by equipment, this is 2 officers without equipment.  Yes, it is an option, rarely used - number of reasons for that, but still valid.   One of the few reasons ( 4 as I recall) where a non- expert can give opinion in court

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MrJ
7 hours ago, Sceptre said:

We discussed this a month ago here

Brilliant, thank you.

Does anyone have any experience of going down this route? E.G for issuing a TOR would it be a case of stating the speed range (from the witnessing officers) and then supporting this on the back sheet and/or any future statements?

 

7 hours ago, BlueBob said:

There are lots of ways of dealing with excess speed. The previous one was a solo officer supported by equipment, this is 2 officers without equipment.  Yes, it is an option, rarely used - number of reasons for that, but still valid.   One of the few reasons ( 4 as I recall) where a non- expert can give opinion in court

A bonus question then, has a TOR etc been given based on a non-police witness account alone? E.G a member of the public reporting speed or maybe a CCTV operator seeing cars doing donuts etc? I have always issued mine on the basis of what I have seen. Would it be a TOR and then a statement from the witness in this case and any supporting CCTV? Just one of those where it has never been mentioned and has surprisingly never cropped up for me. For dash-cams I know in our area there is a dedicated route for the public to do that.

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skydiver
2 hours ago, MrJ said:

Brilliant, thank you.

Does anyone have any experience of going down this route? E.G for issuing a TOR would it be a case of stating the speed range (from the witnessing officers) and then supporting this on the back sheet and/or any future statements?

I've done that with a taxi driver.  I was double crewed when I saw a taxi wandering across the centre of the road so I followed him and asked my crew mate to confirm that I was driving above the speed limit at a speed which matched him, before stopping him and issuing a TOR.  His excuse was that his employer expected him to do too many jobs and that his speedo was broken.  He changed his mind about the latter point when we threatened to seize his van due to the defect.

IIRC 2 officers must witness the offence at the same time and provide a statement to that effect.

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BlueBob
7 minutes ago, skydiver said:

I've done that with a taxi driver.  I was double crewed when I saw a taxi wandering across the centre of the road so I followed him and asked my crew mate to confirm that I was driving above the speed limit at a speed which matched him, before stopping him and issuing a TOR.  His excuse was that his employer expected him to do too many jobs and that his speedo was broken.  He changed his mind about the latter point when we threatened to seize his van due to the defect.

IIRC 2 officers must witness the offence at the same time and provide a statement to that effect.

we threatened to seize his van due to the defect.   Suggesting that sort of thing just leaves a bad message and creates rumours and mis-information.  One day they will say "Okay, take it". Goops!

IIRC 2 officers must witness the offence at the same time and provide a statement to that effect.   Mixing two different requirements.  Single officer with equipment such as your speedo or 2 officers without equipment.  

Whilst the TOR may have been issued and it was, presumably not contested at court.  I might consider against doing it again in that manner.  The key witness being your driver, who may well be challenged as to his speed, distances when following before, during and after the check distance.  Why not offer words of advice from that incident, then delve into the best practices ready for next time.  Practising potential poor procedures that impact on a person's driving licence is just ..........

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Sceptre
4 hours ago, MrJ said:

E.G for issuing a TOR would it be a case of stating the speed range (from the witnessing officers) and then supporting this on the back sheet and/or any future statements?

Don't speculate in your statement as to speeds or speed ranges, anyone with a grain of sense will immediately challenge you on your radar eyesight, how can you be sure it was 35-40mph and not 41mph etc. Stick to objective facts as far as you can, if all you've got is your opinion and your mate's opinion then realistically it's going to be a very weak prosecution and probably not worth it unless the speed was well in excess of the limit, in which case consider whether it was careless or even dangerous. 

1 hour ago, skydiver said:

He changed his mind about the latter point when we threatened to seize his van due to the defect.

What power did you plan on using to do that?

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BlueBob
3 hours ago, Sceptre said:

Don't speculate in your statement as to speeds or speed ranges, anyone with a grain of sense will immediately challenge you on your radar eyesight, how can you be sure it was 35-40mph and not 41mph etc. Stick to objective facts as far as you can, if all you've got is your opinion and your mate's opinion then realistically it's going to be a very weak prosecution and probably not worth it unless the speed was well in excess of the limit, in which case consider whether it was careless or even dangerous. 

What power did you plan on using to do that?

Follow speeds is either a steady speed as shown on the police speedo OR a range such as 40mph speed limit and our speedo showed a min 55 and increasing to a max 63 during the check over a distance on 4/10 of a mile etc.  

With our example, the concern would be the police veh had to gain on the taxi, then slow to match its speed.  The concern would be the police officer was recalling the gain or slowing speeds rather than that of the target veh.  Depends what is put in their notes.   

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Sceptre

Yes, those are objective facts - our speedo showed X. What I meant was to avoid speculating on speeds or ranges of speed based on subjective opinion, even of two officers. 

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