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CameronS999

Red Light - Ambulance Behind

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Gripper

Doesn't say if he appealed it and if he was successful, although a similar event later in the article shows an appeal was successful

If you have justification for moving through the red light, you will have no problem. Another example would be a sink hole opening up in the road behind you. Would you be justified to move across the line and save the lives of you car's occupants - or would you sit there and say "well, there's nothing i can do as the lights are on red"

I would suggest if you can justify your actions, you will be fine.

It seems as though the article depicts an automatic camera which has photo'd the offence - it would not know the circumstances and has just dished out the fine - an appeal by him would surly be successful.

I have driven on blues for the past 15 years and often have situations where i have no way through a junction unless someones goes through the red light (if the lights are on red on one carriage way, its normally the case that the other carriage way has a stream of oncoming traffic coming at you). Never heard of anyone in our area being prosecuted and i have never been asked to 'defend' a drivers actions in such cases

Why put yourself in the situation where you need to justify your actions in the first place, to defend your own driving licence!. And as Police officers need to be more protective of their licence I would be even more cautious of testing the system.

police officers have an exemption, MOPs don't.

And as for sink holes.[emoji3]

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Police Community

Manwhile, in the real world....

The driver of an ESV should never, and I mean NEVER bully other motorists to get out of their way, and especially not bully them into breaking the law by forcing them to move over a solid white line at a junction.

Do that on a blue light training course and I absolutely guarantee that you will have failed the course!

It's true that if convicted of the offence a motorist would probably have a right of appeal, although as it's a strict liability offence, I'm doubtful that there'd be any actual defence to it and the overturning/quashing of a conviction would be much more likely to depend on which side of who's bed the magistrate got out of that morning.

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Felix.

Manwhile, in the real world....

The driver of an ESV should never, and I mean NEVER bully other motorists to get out of their way, and especially not bully them into breaking the law by forcing them to move over a solid white line at a junction.

Do that on a blue light training course and I absolutely guarantee that you will have failed the course!

It's true that if convicted of the offence a motorist would probably have a right of appeal, although as it's a strict liability offence, I'm doubtful that there'd be any actual defence to it and the overturning/quashing of a conviction would be much more likely to depend on which side of who's bed the magistrate got out of that morning.

Who said anything about bullying?

You position yourself in the road so the other road users can see you - wait for a gap to appear in the traffic and use it. If it means the the public have crossed through a red light i would suggest they have a justified reason to do so.

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Felix.

Why put yourself in the situation where you need to justify your actions in the first place, to defend your own driving licence!. And as Police officers need to be more protective of their licence I would be even more cautious of testing the system.

police officers have an exemption, MOPs don't.

And as for sink holes.[emoji3]

I was using sink holes as an example. My point being is that if you can justify your actions, you'll be fine.

Here's another - you are waiting at a red light which you know from experience stays red for ages. You see ahead of you a school on fire, quickly coming behind you is two fire engines, 2 ambulances and police cars. The road is narrow, so you can not move left or right to let them past. Will you be happy to wait until the light turns green and hold them up, or do you think common sense would allow you to move through the red light to let them past?

And which court in this land would prosecute you if you did go through them?

The law has to be applied fairly and the RTA is no exception. An old lady collapses in front of you whilst you are driving. Do you stop and help despite leaving your car on double yellows? Or would you drive around and around looking for a parking space?

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znra2511546080955

If it was a police vehicle you could claim that the constable in uniform appeared to be telling you to pull forward and to the side and therefore you was complying within his instructions which would give you a solid road traffic act defense, unfortunately doesn't apply in this case but I know an officer who got served a NIP/s172 paperwork for contravening a no right turn sign, fortunately his colleague remembered instructing him to contravene it and happened to be in uniform that day so it was written off :)

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Dan!Dan!Dan!

That's worse than sink holes......

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Gripper
Why put yourself in the situation where you need to justify your actions in the first place, to defend your own driving licence!. And as Police officers need to be more protective of their licence I would be even more cautious of testing the system.

police officers have an exemption, MOPs don't.

And as for sink holes.[emoji3]

I was using sink holes as an example. My point being is that if you can justify your actions, you'll be fine.

Here's another - you are waiting at a red light which you know from experience stays red for ages. You see ahead of you a school on fire, quickly coming behind you is two fire engines, 2 ambulances and police cars. The road is narrow, so you can not move left or right to let them past. Will you be happy to wait until the light turns green and hold them up, or do you think common sense would allow you to move through the red light to let them past?

And which court in this land would prosecute you if you did go through them?

The law has to be applied fairly and the RTA is no exception. An old lady collapses in front of you whilst you are driving. Do you stop and help despite leaving your car on double yellows? Or would you drive around and around looking for a parking space?

I find it rather humorous that all these once in a lifetime occurrences are brought up to try and justify breaking the law, and "if you can justify your actions you'll be fine" is fine by me if you want to risk your driving licence. But let's be clear here, there is no automatic get out of jail ticket contrary to what some people on here have said.

Edited by gripper

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Police Community

Who said anything about bullying?

Well, you did.

Bully: Use superior strength or influence (in this case, disco lights & music) to intimidate someone, typically to force them to do something.

Ultimately, you, as the driver (MOP) should not break the law in order to move out of the way of an ESV. Whilst there might be justification and mitigation, that isn't going to help you when someone approaching from the other direction, and on a green light, doesn't see you or doesn't realise what you're doing.

And as an ESV driver, you should never put members of the public in a position that forces/intimidates/bullies them into taking a particular course of action. If you did so, and something happened, then you may well find yourself stood in the dock next to the member of the public. You'd have to remember that you'd not only be responsible for your actions, but if they've moved out across a junction, you may well also be responsible for theirs!

Successful completion of a blue light driving course actually depends a great deal on your anticipation of other peoples actions. Think, Mystic Meg on blue lights :) You have to constantly think about "if I do this, what is likely to happen". Which is a lot harder in practice than you might imagine.

No matter what the emergency, you're useless if you don't get there because either you've crashed, or you've forced someone else to move out of your way and they've crashed. Either way, you're going to be buried up to your neck in paperwork for the foreseeable, and you won't be making it to whatever job you were on the blues trying to reach.

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Reasonable Man

www.askthe.police.uk/Content/Q699.htm

Clarifies that you will be committing an offence but you may have mitigation. The onus is on you to provide the evidence.

Sent from me using witchcraft

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Dan!Dan!Dan!

Already posted....

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Tobermory

​That Q699 is typically weasally worded.

​Personally, there is absolutely no way in the world I would let a police car through on blues if the only way to manage it was to cross the line. the vast majority of coppers would give you a wave of thanks but there is a hardcore few (but still significant number) that will happily start throwing FPN's around like confetti. Sadly there is no way for an ordinary citizen to tell the good coppers from the bad ones until your in a choke hold.

​I would probably take a chance letting an ambulance or fire service vehicle through on moral grounds but I'd still be nervous, you never know who is watching. Those idiot that control junction cameras aren't exactly known for their discretion.

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rogerthepoliceman

The Highway Code on this topic

Rule 219

Emergency and Incident Support vehicles. You should look and listen for ambulances, fire engines, police, doctors or other emergency vehicles using flashing blue, red or green lights and sirens or flashing headlights, or traffic officer and incident support vehicles using flashing amber lights. When one approaches do not panic. Consider the route of such a vehicle and take appropriate action to let it pass, while complying with all traffic signs. If necessary, pull to the side of the road and stop, but try to avoid stopping before the brow of a hill, a bend or narrow section of road. Do not endanger yourself, other road users or pedestrians and avoid mounting the kerb. Do not brake harshly on approach to a junction or roundabout, as a following vehicle may not have the same view as you.

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