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Beaker

Kubotan question

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Beaker

Friend asking a question, and then disagreeing with my assessment here.

 

I think they're an offensive weapon, and if I found someone carrying one they're getting bracelets and a van ride. Her argument is that it's a keyring that can be pressed in to service as a weapon.

 

Opinions?

 

Obvious disclaimer, just curious what others think.

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Mac7

Hmmmmmm

 

I’ve never come across one and I admit that I am torn as to my opinion.

 

A lot would depend on circumstances and context but if I came across someone carrying one on a key ring (simple possession) then I don’t think I would arrest for offensive weapon or blades/pointed article. I’m struggling to put into words why, but my gut is saying no.

 

I don’t think it would fit the necessity test (without further circs/context) and I don’t think it would be proportionate. At most I’d go for a forfeiture.

 

A lot depends on how you find the person, intelligence, current community tension etc etc. There would need to be an aggravating factor for me to consider arrest or other more formal disposal.

 

Good post. Look forward to other opinions.

 

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SD

It’s an offensive weapon, but I may not arrest for it. I may seize, crime and offer advice. But I wouldn’t be turning a blind eye to it.

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chaos4122
It’s an offensive weapon, but I may not arrest for it. I may seize, crime and offer advice. But I wouldn’t be turning a blind eye to it.


Could you seize on the streets without an arrest if someone doesn't want to hand it over?

Section 1 search, seizure, advice, crime and file it?

Humm

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Beaker

My thought process is that it's designed to be a weapon. Regardless if you have keys clipped to it or not, it doesn't change the design or function. No real difference between that and a baton from a law perspective.

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chaos4122

You get some with a point on the end that's designed to smash a car window in an emergency situation.

A colleague has on and I think used it once to get a dog out of a vehicle on a hot day.

No more offensive than a house key between your knuckles.


http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/modifications-accessories/163949-kubotan-5-safety-device-can-break-car-window-help-you-escape-fire.html

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BlueBob

As I understand it a Kubotan has a very specific design  (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kubotan),   however, its design differs little from the common fuel key which also has a fairly pointed end, lacks the rings but made of hard plastic.  With the former with a primary purpose and lends itself to being an off weapon or more rightly is difficult how to say it isn't an off weap hence the two similar items differ as an off weapon without more info. 
Your hardly going to find it if Mr/Mrs Smith has a kubotan as a key ring kept in their pocket and their out getting a Costa (other coffee are also available).  As above, depends how it's come to notice and gauge how to proceed from there.

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Hyphen

It’s an interesting point. I didn’t know a lot about these to be fair. Is it not a glass breaker then? 

In terms of offensive weapon offences I find it highly unlikely that it would ever result in an arrest as I don’t see a situation with a person having one of these ever meeting the necessity test. This doesn’t look like a go to ‘weapon’ for the usual customers.

As others have mentioned I think words of advice would be suitable if it came to attention but again let’s face it I doubt this would really come to Police attention anyway.

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AdamL

Worst case scenario they purchase a bright yellow high vis one which is logo'd some unimaginative name like 'Glass Smash' and decide to use it as a weapon (after parting they're bunch of keys from it) and get done for a weapon of offensive?
Unless of course they aren't a legit customer and tell you they got it to go and poke Dave in the eye with it cause Dave nicked his tobacco and now he wants revenge next time he sees him outside the pub?

Disclaimer: Dave isn't all that bad, he got his pouch mixed up with this chaps and took the wrong one, albeit daves pouch was empty and this pouch is fairly new.

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AdamL

Ignore the typos above, auto correct is on a crusade this morning...
*their bunch of keys
*weapon of offence

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miffy

Would it not be a tool for breaking windows? The offence of going equipped seems more suitable, but it would depend on the circumstances of the person. More likely if the holder was known for previous,  I would consider seizure for disposal and a intel report on the person carrying it.

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Sceptre
14 hours ago, chaos4122 said:

Could you seize on the streets without an arrest if someone doesn't want to hand it over?

Section 1 search, seizure, advice, crime and file it?

You're precisely right, stop and search them and if you find something you reasonably suspect to be a prohibited article there's a power of seizure under S1(6) PACE: "If in the course of such a search a constable discovers an article which he has reasonable grounds for suspecting to be a stolen or prohibited article, an article to which subsection (8A) below applies or a firework to which subsection (8B) below applies, he may seize it".

The courts can make an order for disposal of an offensive weapon on conviction, but until that time although it's illegal to possess in public and there's a power to seize it they still own it until the point they either disclaim it or can reasonably be assumed to have abandoned it and so advice should be sought before just deciding to dispose of it against their rights. 

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SimonT

It's a weapon, designed as such. It may be usable to smash a window, certainly it could be carried for same. But it's a manufactured weapon. You can't carry it without a good reason and I don't think window stuff is enough. A knuckle duster can break a window. 

I'm not saying definitely arrest, but crime and deal as appropriate. 

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Beaker

Thanks folks, appreciate the feedback.

 

Main reason I'd arrest after a check with supervision is partly down to not wanting to make extra work for a Regular to deal with afterwards. If I was advised to VA I would, but I'd prefer not to where possible.

 

 

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