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Equin0x
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I've had a look and it seems most forces in England & Wales use either NicheRMS or Red Sigma, and the Met use the Integrated Intelligence Platform. To what extend are these systems networked, do they "talk"  to each other? For example if an officer in Durham submits an intelligence report on Red Sigma, can it be seen by a Met officer on the IIP or a Merseyside officer on Niche?

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An intel log like that would have to be transferred to another force rather than being easily  accessible between the two forces although having said that a PND request to an intel bureau should find the log.  Forces which share the same platform  would be able to see the intel log but that only applies to specific partners and not every force which uses Niche.  Northants, Derby, Leics and Lincs all use Niche and can see each other's reports but another force which uses Niche but isn't part of that agreement, won't be able to see any of those reports,

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Usually you will find there is an entry on PND that directs you to which force or organisation holds the intelligence. 
 

Do they talk, yeah kind of, but it’s not the most effective system. 

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On 06/10/2021 at 16:30, Ether said:

Usually you will find there is an entry on PND that directs you to which force or organisation holds the intelligence. 
 

Do they talk, yeah kind of, but it’s not the most effective system. 

What's the reason for different forces having different systems? I thought there was a national police database as well, how come all forces don't just put their intel reports on that centrally?

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31 minutes ago, Equin0x said:

What's the reason for different forces having different systems? I thought there was a national police database as well, how come all forces don't just put their intel reports on that centrally?

Money and horrendous procurement processes across the entire government. 

Industry would never accept the abysmal products government departments do. 

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On a general whole other forces systems will not 'speak' to each other, which can naturally be very frustrating at time. I can count on one hand the number of forces that do allow their systems to talk however these are still in a very minimal state.  In terms of having systems 'talk' to each other the majority of forces will have policy and procedures in place to refer the information to each other which is usually a case of said infromation being referred to the receiving force which will have it's own dedicated team who will add said information on so it's live and available for that force. 

For the majority of things depending on what information needs to be 'networked' between forces it would just be placed on PNC the police national computer of which every force has access so the information can be accessed there. 

Regarding why other forces have different systems in place, as @Ether +has very rightly said it's down to force procurement at the time of requiring a specific system.

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18 hours ago, Ether said:

Money and horrendous procurement processes across the entire government. 

Industry would never accept the abysmal products government departments do. 

How true is this. I always think if the polcie was a business how long would it last? I reckon days 

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19 hours ago, Equin0x said:

What's the reason for different forces having different systems? I thought there was a national police database as well, how come all forces don't just put their intel reports on that centrally?

Each force has its own budget and it’s own destiny. It’s has been tried for years to standardise but each force is at different stages of IT journeys.

I first became aware in the days of PITO when the HO tried to dictate to all forces to move to the same system. Chief Constable A reasonably asks why he should spend £5M on a new system when he paid out £3M last year for the system that suits his force? The HO wouldn’t pay for 43 (56) forces to each have a new system.
So it has carried on as every year 4/5 forces will buy a new system. 
The NPIA tried to force the issue by saying as each force replaced an old system they had to buy the ‘standard’ one so over time everyone would have the same system. But then the NPIA functions were split and that idea went out the window. 

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1 hour ago, Noman94 said:

How true is this. I always think if the polcie was a business how long would it last? I reckon days 

That’s all government departments. That whole system is ineffective and corrupt. 

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2 hours ago, Reasonable Man said:

Each force has its own budget and it’s own destiny. It’s has been tried for years to standardise but each force is at different stages of IT journeys.

I first became aware in the days of PITO when the HO tried to dictate to all forces to move to the same system. Chief Constable A reasonably asks why he should spend £5M on a new system when he paid out £3M last year for the system that suits his force? The HO wouldn’t pay for 43 (56) forces to each have a new system.
So it has carried on as every year 4/5 forces will buy a new system. 
The NPIA tried to force the issue by saying as each force replaced an old system they had to buy the ‘standard’ one so over time everyone would have the same system. But then the NPIA functions were split and that idea went out the window. 

Do the systems used by individual forces have any features that PNC couldn't do? Completely understand why they don't want to pay for new systems but PNC is already a live and running system used by all forces, why don't they just put all their records and intel on that system and then other forces can more easily access it as needed?

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6 minutes ago, Equin0x said:

Do the systems used by individual forces have any features that PNC couldn't do? Completely understand why they don't want to pay for new systems but PNC is already a live and running system used by all forces, why don't they just put all their records and intel on that system and then other forces can more easily access it as needed?

Dozens of things the PNC can't do, from crime recording to case management to duties to property to file generation to supporting images and a host more. The PNC was simply not designed to do any of that and is very rudimentary in what it holds and how it appears by modern standards; it's also difficult to learn as it relies on codes the operator has to memorise. The PND was an effort to improve the intelligence-sharing aspect, but there was a balance to strike between giving everybody access or keeping it to a small select group of trained operators to ensure the data quality stayed high, and the latter won out.

They're both meant to be replaced by a project started in 2016, reset in 2020 and still not on course to deliver by 2024. Standardising police IT sounds like an obvious and straightforward thing to do, but the reality of it seems to be so much more intricate and difficult.

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Large scale national systems have proved to be impossible to deliver. See the national Fire Service control room fiasco and attempts at a single NHS system as examples. 

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40 minutes ago, Sceptre said:

Dozens of things the PNC can't do, from crime recording to case management to duties to property to file generation to supporting images and a host more. The PNC was simply not designed to do any of that and is very rudimentary in what it holds and how it appears by modern standards; it's also difficult to learn as it relies on codes the operator has to memorise. The PND was an effort to improve the intelligence-sharing aspect, but there was a balance to strike between giving everybody access or keeping it to a small select group of trained operators to ensure the data quality stayed high, and the latter won out.

They're both meant to be replaced by a project started in 2016, reset in 2020 and still not on course to deliver by 2024. Standardising police IT sounds like an obvious and straightforward thing to do, but the reality of it seems to be so much more intricate and difficult.

Ah that makes sense then, was wondering why they hadn't just transitioned to make PNC the national system for everything.

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It would be nice to have a national system, generally police "local" systems don't talk to each other, the exception here is North Wales, Cheshire and MERPOL who use the same system. Interestingly GMP was offered the same system by MERPOL but decided to go solo and we all know how that ended up. The only systems which are national are PNC and PND, even intel submitted on local systems may not be disseminated until evaluated and rated. 

Edited by Yugen
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3 hours ago, Yugen said:

It would be nice to have a national system, generally police "local" systems don't talk to each other, the exception here is North Wales, Cheshire and MERPOL who use the same system. Interestingly GMP was offered the same system by MERPOL but decided to go solo and we all know how that ended up. The only systems which are national are PNC and PND, even intel submitted on local systems may not be disseminated until evaluated and rated. 

Do you think it will change in the future? Having lots of unconnected silos of data seems really inefficient for intelligence gathering and investigations.

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