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Acting Off Duty


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BizzieBee
25 minutes ago, Fry said:

are handcuffs an offensive weapon

They aren’t. Quite the opposite, in fact? 
 

The baton/ASP may well be, but then if you’re given permission therefore have “lawful authority” I would imagine? Thus negating the offence? 
 

25 minutes ago, Fry said:

I'm pretty confident that carrying your PPE off duty is limited to a small number of clear prescribed circumstances, as promulgated by Roy

Travelling to and from work is permitted, with the exclusion of PAVA. 

I don’t make the rules. Makes sense though? Although not sure it’d be a great idea extending baton/ASP on public transport. The cuffs are useful, however. 
 

[EDIT]: I have just checked the written Policy on this and note “Officers are permitted to carry their issued baton and handcuffs whilst travelling to and from work but, under no circumstances, must any officer carry PAVA spray whilst travelling” 

Edited by BizzieBee
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Be a professional witness, not a professional victim, unless you really need to go hands on and get involved. Clearly 999 is going to be the quickest way to get people to you, without PPE and an

@Javissdaviss * Thats a sixty four dollar question if ever I heard one, but its a good one . A long  time ago in the eighties sometime we had a special who was in a similar predicament. He was in

There is the possibility that they had the number to their NPT/Response office however I'd always steer clear of that as if anything happens you don't have an audit trail to go by. By phoning 999 it w

SimonT

The big question remains, why does anyone need to carry their Ppe too and from work on a regular basis? I will take mine home for travel to training as it's miles away from my home station. But that's it. Otherwise I'm wearing it or its in my locker. 

You can carry handcuffs, but why would you?

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BizzieBee
2 hours ago, SimonT said:

You can carry handcuffs, but why would you?

I suppose it depends on where you live, how far you travel, the demographic, the type of persons travelling and your own assessment of risk/‘positive action’. I’ve lost count of the times a public order incident has occurred whilst travelling on a train, and isolated incidents of sexual advances and some thefts. 

I guess the issue here is, who would you go for first, if more than one aggressor, with one pair of cuffs and no back-up with the public order example. 

Better to have them than not? 

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Wilts20
2 hours ago, SimonT said:

The big question remains, why does anyone need to carry their Ppe too and from work on a regular basis? I will take mine home for travel to training as it's miles away from my home station. But that's it. Otherwise I'm wearing it or its in my locker. 

You can carry handcuffs, but why would you?

This kind of reason I imagine https://www.standard.co.uk/news/crime/police-officer-attacked-youths-greater-manchester-offduty-a4470701.html 

https://www.eadt.co.uk/news/off-duty-police-officer-assaulted-7517228

 

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pcmode
17 minutes ago, Wilts20 said:

Based on only the limited information in the reports i'd say cuffs could have made things worse as they may well have been used as a weapon against the officer or used to restrain the officer leading to an even worse outcome.

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SimonT
18 hours ago, BizzieBee said:

I suppose it depends on where you live, how far you travel, the demographic, the type of persons travelling and your own assessment of risk/‘positive action’. I’ve lost count of the times a public order incident has occurred whilst travelling on a train, and isolated incidents of sexual advances and some thefts. 

I guess the issue here is, who would you go for first, if more than one aggressor, with one pair of cuffs and no back-up with the public order example. 

Better to have them than not? 

Who would I go for? Neither to be honest.

Certainly not for some public order. Running about with cuffs out paints a target on you, one that both combatants are likely to respond to . 

We are neither superhuman or expendable and don't need to weigh in on everything we see. But if you feel the need to carry cuffs, then we will just have to agree different mindsets. 

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BlueBob
19 hours ago, BizzieBee said:

I suppose it depends on where you live, how far you travel, the demographic, the type of persons travelling and your own assessment of risk/‘positive action’. I’ve lost count of the times a public order incident has occurred whilst travelling on a train, and isolated incidents of sexual advances and some thefts. 

I guess the issue here is, who would you go for first, if more than one aggressor, with one pair of cuffs and no back-up with the public order example. 

Better to have them than not? 

The thing about policing is to know when to go in and when to step back when thinking about things whilst off duty. It is the rarest of occasions when it is worth stepping forward and the odds are already stepped against you.  Be assured that when you shout out at being police, the odds will change and not in a good way.  The only thing that is sure to happen is the passers by who you thought may come to assist will step back and reach for their cameras to record your demise for prosperity!!!! 

Edited by BlueBob
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Fry
On 21/02/2021 at 19:35, BizzieBee said:

[EDIT]: I have just checked the written Policy on this and note “Officers are permitted to carry their issued baton and handcuffs whilst travelling to and from work but, under no circumstances, must any officer carry PAVA spray whilst travelling” 

Yes, handcuffs aren't offensive weapons and you can carry them around to your hearts content, but you really should probably read the rest of the paragraph/document around that sentence.  There is not a standing authority to carry your PPE home unless certain circumstances apply.

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BizzieBee
5 hours ago, Fry said:

but you really should probably read the rest of the paragraph/document around that sentence. 

I have. And spoken to PST. 
 

11 hours ago, BlueBob said:

The thing about policing is to know when to go in and when to step back when thinking about things whilst off duty.

Absolutely. Nothing being disputed there.

 

5 hours ago, Fry said:

There is not a standing authority to carry your PPE home unless certain circumstances apply.

As stated, there is. Explicitly for baton and handcuffs. 
 

12 hours ago, SimonT said:

and don't need to weigh in on everything we see.

Absolutely. But when we do, and feel we can, the cuffs are useful by design. To secure the person and prevent injury (in the main). 

 

(Sorry - quote feature on a phone appears to be a pain, so not in order)

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Richhamdo
20 hours ago, BlueBob said:

The thing about policing is to know when to go in and when to step back when thinking about things whilst off duty. It is the rarest of occasions when it is worth stepping forward and the odds are already stepped against you.  Be assured that when you shout out at being police, the odds will change and not in a good way.  The only thing that is sure to happen is the passers by who you thought may come to assist will step back and reach for their cameras to record your demise for prosperity!!!! 

@BlueBob +,Totally agree and very much like your first two sentences regarding this matter. I can only give my advice to specials constables new to the job, but what I will put to them (for what its worth) is to look at the use of force  “impact factors”. Read them till you know them by heart.
When acting “off duty” the stress of the situation can cloud judgement or  proper assessment. I will repeat what that Sgt on the American police programme forty years ago used to say after he finished his briefing , “Hey, let’s be careful out there”    wise words indeed.


But In the scenario or question  we are discussing there are over a dozen,maybe more  variables that you need to have a think about,not least the possibility that someone might snatch and run off with your cuffs,😀.

I think most of the people who have been helping to keep the peace for more than two or three years will probably agree that handcuffing someone as high as a kite (and whose only goal in life is to avoid being cuffed and escape) by yourself is no mean feat.
I have only done it once, that was the one where the girlfriend was whacking me over the head and screaming in my ear to “let him alone, you’re hurting him” as I tried to cuff this guy on the pavement and she knocked my cap off sending it across the marketplace. Incidentally this other guy went to retrieve it for me (which I thought was very nice of him at the time) and brought it back. My partner was dealing with some other people fighting nearby in case you are wondering where he was. 
It wasn’t easy and fortunately I was youngish, fit and quite strong at that time and have to say it certainly wasn’t as simple as it was made out to be in the gym, where your partner in crime obligingly complies with every request while you brought him or her gently down on to the mat, then cuffing their outstretched arm while kneeling on their right shoulder, (or whatever). Rich.

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Zulu 22

Of course we3 are talking of "Acting Off Duty".  I know that all regulars who I have known and worked with would not have hesitated in acting when off duty, if the circumstances are right.  Most would act react automatically, as if they  were on duty. I used to carry baton and handcuffs if and when I was travelling to or from work when in uniform.  When I have acted when off duty, sometimes there were problems.  Once at the Golf club when I discovered a youth riffling the lockers. Chased after him and arrested him on the second fairway. He was very non compliant, ended up completely winded and his hands were tied with a GMP neck tie.

If the circumstances warrant it then it is usually and automatic reaction. I do not think that the same automatic reaction would be there with most Specials. There are always exceptions. 

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bensonby
17 hours ago, Fry said:

Yes, handcuffs aren't offensive weapons and you can carry them around to your hearts content, but you really should probably read the rest of the paragraph/document around that sentence.  There is not a standing authority to carry your PPE home unless certain circumstances apply.

In the MPS isn’t it the case that papa can be taken home on inspector’s authority? (e.g. if you have court or are parading elsewhere the next shift). 

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Wilts20
On 22/02/2021 at 18:42, pcmode said:

Based on only the limited information in the reports i'd say cuffs could have made things worse as they may well have been used as a weapon against the officer or used to restrain the officer leading to an even worse outcome.

What about a baton then? Other European & N. American nations often carry something (usually a firearm) off-duty. It just seems odd that UK police staff face risks too and yet carry nothing.

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Wilts20
4 hours ago, Zulu 22 said:

hands were tied with a GMP neck tie.

Legend. Photos?

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