Auditors

[Chief Bakes 6,479]

PCC looks set to take over fire when new bill is passed.

Plans to integrate one county’s police and fire service have moved a step closer following the publication of an independent report advocating the merger.

Earlier this year, Staffordshire PCC Matthew Ellis and the county’s Fire and Rescue Service commissioned a review to look at whether there was a “case for full integration” in order to protect and enhance the front line.

The report, carried out by independent consultant Fiona Tamplin, concluded an “integrated organisation” would reduce duplication in support processes, make better use of estates and in turn reduce demand across both services.

“This would protect frontline services for both fire and police and would allow savings made elsewhere to be invested where it’s needed such as response, prevention, protection, early intervention, community engagement, tactical planning and other frontline activities,” it states.

Under the plans, the services would merge into one employer organisation with a single chief officer and one management team, including a deputy chief officer for fire and a deputy chief officer for police.

The report found although many in both organisations agree joint working is “the common sense thing to do”, currently cultural differences between the services and different ways of working mean opportunities to collaborate are not fully capitalised on.

“The services have developed over many years and their cultures, beliefs and values are deep seated,” it states.

“The difference in the size and complexity of fire and police also adds to the differences in priorities and approaches to work. Tackling these differences whilst the services remain separate, is likely to be impossible and although there are examples of where there have been, and continue to be joint working, there are still a number of unresolved issues that hinder truly efficient and effective working.”

The review found savings could be made of at least £5.4 million per year through having a single control room, shared estates and single business support.

Mr Ellis said he supports the recommendations made in the review but believes the suggested timescales “are too optimistic.”

The report suggests that the logical date for the OPCC to take over governance of the fire service would be April 2017, with the earliest recommended date for a single employer being a year later.

Public consultation on the issue cannot begin until the Policing and Crime Bill is passed, expected to be early next year.

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[Cathedral Bobby + 1,174]

How about before we look at merging fire and police services we might possibly think about merging neighbouring forces and see if that works before we consider merging services who's only real similarities are blue lights and woo woos. Mind you they seem to get access better equipment. Ha ha, that's where the Mets water canons are going????

[MerseyLLB 8,426]

It's a race to the bottom.

I'm all for cost cutting  but £5m between two police forces is pretty small change for the huge amount of disruption this gamble will have.

[Prae 764]

It's a silly idea put forward by two people who don't really know what they're talking about. The proposed savings are completely made up and in all likelihood such a merger will make both services less efficient at doing their respective jobs.

Still, why should we let the cold hard facts get in the way of a good political sound bite?

[David + 4,981]

Never understood the need or role for the PCC, but since it exists, it's a shame mine doesn't take some sort of interest in it. I've had cause to contact my PCC who gives all the spiel on his website about how he's working hard to make the the county to be safe for everyone and all the rest.

When it comes down to it though, he seems to shrug his shoulders and say 'nowt to do with me, cock'.

What's it going to achieve in allowing his mitts on the fire brigade too?

[Cathedral Bobby + 1,174]

5 hours ago, David said:

Never understood the need or role for the PCC, but since it exists, it's a shame mine doesn't take some sort of interest in it. I've had cause to contact my PCC who gives all the spiel on his website about how he's working hard to make the the county to be safe for everyone and all the rest.

When it comes down to it though, he seems to shrug his shoulders and say 'nowt to do with me, cock'.

What's it going to achieve in allowing his mitts on the fire brigade too?

Empire building

 

[BlueBob + 700]

What is there to lose?  It seems to be saying the merger would be on the admin side rather than a Supt sitting in a fire engine or Watch Officer at a crime scene.  Even on a basic and simplistic case, sharing premises could be a great benefit, especially  in areas where just an office is require for a couple officers or parking and writing space perhaps at a part-time F Station.  HR, Fleet etc could merge skills and resources.   
As the most basic question, would it be better to spend £X,000 on duplicated support staff or spend some of that on core resources.

 

[SimonT + 1,194]

To be realistic, all forces need to use the same kit and forms and computers. 

Same for ambulance and fire.  

But there are too many cooks and turkey not wanting to vote for Christmas.  Too many chiefs and pcc's who would go if it was implemented.  

The military don't use different kit depending on regiment.  Because that's insane.  (specialist units aside )  

But we have different forms and policies across division, let alone different forces. 

We also have two fire services in one county.  Why? Gawd knows.  

 

[bikerider 5]

Somethings almost gone a full circle.I don't wish to belittle this discussion but I think it was pre-war that the Police and Ambulance service were one and the same. I certainly remember my father talking about it when he was a PC who joined in 1930. But that was then and things now are so much more difficult and advance I cannot see it working all that satisfactorily. Still when it goes belly up the Government will find some to blame - not themselves of course.

[Zulu 22 + 4,628]

Pre war the Police and Fire Brigade were integrated and known as Icky the Fire Bobby.  It did not work and was scrapped. These people who come up with these wonderful idea's should look into history a little or even speak to people who knew or even worked that system.

Edited December 19, 2016 by Zulu 22
error

[ParochialYokal 1,119]

Organisations can merge functions without merging management structures.

If a business case can be put forward to share a control room and the risks can be managed, then go for it.

But merging organisations will only save money on senior posts. Whilst these people earn high salaries, the savings are a drop in the ocean. Many mergers end up costing more money because you have to employ more managers to manage the transition and undertake transformation.




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[BlueBob + 700]

It looks like this scoping report has said there are likely to be significant savings - 
The review found savings could be made of at least £5.4 million per year through having a single control room, shared estates and single business support.
The says the problems are more cultural and culture can be changed if there is a will to do so.  £5.4m may not seem much, but it would be enough to avoid a station or two closing, perhaps a couple of additional officers  - in both services.  Thats enough to encourage a change
The role and tasks for the fire service have changed dramatically over the last few years as fewer and less significant fires are occurring (Not saying they aren't needed, just their demand has changed)
Is there really a need for dual HR depts, dual fleet manager depts, dual stores etc.  It may not work in all areas but where it can, then why not?

[ParochialYokal 1,119]

But the two organisations do not need to merge in order to merge their control room or consolidate their back office functions.

Each organisation could seek to 'host' certain functions as the lead for the other. For example, the police could lead on HR and the fire service on fleet (or however it turns out).

Existing staff (that were not made redundant or redeployed) could work in partnership but still remain employed by their host organisation without being made to change terms and conditions.

I am not sure why people in high places get so excited about merging organisations when such a measure is nothing more than a blunt instrument. There are more nuanced ways of integrating functions that will deliver savings and are far more preferable than trying to attack or change the cultures of organisations through a Big Bang approach. Assimilation works far better when it is gradual.




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[PCW + 135]

It will be interesting to see where this one goes. West Mercia Police are currently in the process of building a Joint Operational Control Centre for police and fire control.

Provisions are already being made for collaboration between the force/service but they still remain entirely their own entity.

So it's a step towards but not at rocket pace


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[BlueBob + 700]

5 hours ago, ParochialYokal said:

But the two organisations do not need to merge in order to merge their control room or consolidate their back office functions.
Each organisation could seek to 'host' certain functions as the lead for the other. For example, the police could lead on HR and the fire service on fleet (or however it turns out).
Existing staff (that were not made redundant or redeployed) could work in partnership but still remain employed by their host organisation without being made to change terms and conditions.
I am not sure why people in high places get so excited about merging organisations when such a measure is nothing more than a blunt instrument. There are more nuanced ways of integrating functions that will deliver savings and are far more preferable than trying to attack or change the cultures of organisations through a Big Bang approach. Assimilation works far better when it is gradual.
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By hosting, they would have to be mix'n'match and lack a cohesive and single entity which is what tends to make something move smoothly.  Hosting would limit development / promotion within the administration (think how many get shuffled around depts as it is)  Would we not be making a bigger issue than a merger.