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Legislation for Ambulance Service forcing entry to property.


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Sectioned Detection

So we go and try and do our best.'

This is where cops fall down though. They mistake doing their best for doing something, anything!

We already have the testing it's just that it's the boring stuff frontline cops tend to ignore. A big one is the decidion making model with one aspect being Powers and Policies, so if it isn't legal it's not an option. If people wrote it down in they're PNB they will bomb proof.

Proportionality is another place cops fall down, if it feels wrong to get hands on it probably is.

I often hear people say "I'd rather be in court telling a judge why I did X than telling them why I didn't and they died" that's their choice but I see it the other way round. I'd rather tell a judge how I did everything I could within the law but they still died than I bent the rules and they died because of it. Sure the Daily Mail might have a rant but at least I won't be facing manslaughter charges while the paramedics and MH team stand there shaking their heads in disgust.

Make THEM do all the work and justify why YOU are the best person to do what they're asking. If they can't, don't do it. I can honestly say I've never heard another cop ask paramedics, having been told a person lack capacity, if the condition is life threatening. Not once. Why? If they say "no" we can pretty much walk away but most don't. They fellt like they should be seen to be doing something, anything! The legality is a secondary consideration if one at all.

Police have spent over a decade taking on ever increasing responsibility from partner agencies and it won't change overnight. Until it does I'm doing it by the book and covering my ass even if it goes against the norm.

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Wellying doors in is one policing demand I don't want to hand off to another agency!

Never known fire to go to an ambulance entry assist. But i suppose if wouldn't know if they did.

Its semantics, they were on the property illegally. Had they not gone in they wouldnt have been in situation in the first place. I've lost count the number of times I have seen the Mental Capacity Ac

SimonT

I'm certainly not disagreeing.I have had many an interagency standoff to try and get the best people to deal.

But there is still the expectation that as we have attended then we have to do something.

So many times we get sent a job by a member of the public or another department and it's not for us but the 'right' agency just says nope, not going. And that's that.

If we could say it's ambulance job, ambulance refuse to go so that's on them it would be great. But it's always on us.

Our greatest and saddest fights are with other departments within the police or other agencies who work with us, just trying to get them to do their jo.

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BlueBob

I'm certainly not disagreeing.I have had many an interagency standoff to try and get the best people to deal.

But there is still the expectation that as we have attended then we have to do something.

So many times we get sent a job by a member of the public or another department and it's not for us but the 'right' agency just says nope, not going. And that's that.

If we could say it's ambulance job, ambulance refuse to go so that's on them it would be great. But it's always on us.

Our greatest and saddest fights are with other departments within the police or other agencies who work with us, just trying to get them to do their jo.

Quite agree, having been called a police officer will often adopt the 'I'm in charge' approach and look to be the lead agency rather than turning up and asking 'what have you called me for and how can I help you?'  Having got to the stage of being asked to do something, is to ask the secondary question 'Then what do you want me to do? or 'At what point can I step back and allow you to continue with your job?

The examples above include the door being forced - great to attend and being asked to assist.  The secondary question would be to ask who or how will the door be secured, rather than leaving it as an unknown. 

Perhaps what gets missed is communication.  Keep asking questions until you know what is required or be prepared to take the lead and all the grief that accompanies a poorly executed plan.

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Sectioned Detection

Keep asking questions until you know what is required or be prepared to take the lead and all the grief that accompanies a poorly executed plan.

I think this sums it up nicely.

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  • 5 years later...
Owen_Walker
On 04/04/2015 at 21:52, ParochialYokal said:

It wasn't uncommon for ambulance crews to carry a crow bar 15-20 years ago. I guess that things are subject to more scrutiny these days.

 

Nonetheless, if LAS operational protocols suggest that their crew should force entry then that probably amounts to evidence towards a defence.

I currently work for the ambulance service and i remember a colleague telling me that we still carry Bolt Cutters on most trucks, Im yet to find them though so am unsure as to whether only managers carry them

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Owen_Walker
On 04/04/2015 at 17:14, Milankovitch said:

Found policy documents online from the London Ambulance Service that suggest crews should force entry to premises if somebody inside requires urgent assistance. Apparently a few other ambulance services have similar policies but I'm not seeing any mention of legislation. Might well be some obscure common law power to force entry in certain circumstances which is being relied upon as often seems to be the case.

 

On a slight tangent, the fire service in Scotland are the first port of call when the ambulance service need help forcing entry to a premises (and they have the powers to do this clearly set out in legislation), seems like something that could be replicated across the UK to reduce the burden on the police.

Agree with this, But i think it depends on trust, The Ambulance Trust i work for (EEAST) have different arrangements depending on county. For Example: In Norfolk the arrangment is that the fire service will force entry for us, in suffolk it it the police that come and do it.

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Owen_Walker
On 05/04/2015 at 19:22, Sectioned Detection said:

The problem arises when police use Sec 17 to gain entry to a suicidal person, it doesn't confer the power to ambulance crew. So if the person tells the paramedic to clear off then they have to leave.

This depends on whether that person has the capacity to tell them to leave in the first instance

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Owen_Walker
On 05/04/2015 at 17:16, Burnie said:

We had this a couple of months ago when I was working with an MoE team and we were sent to an 'Assist Ambo' job.

 

Fire have a VERY wide power of entry.

Police have a number of specific powers of entry.

 

Ambulance have absolutely nothing. No power of entry at all.

 

They have defence to trespass (presumed consent) but no entry power. This is why they will call us to put a door through using our "Life and Limb" power if there's no open windows they could shimmy through but can't (shouldn't) boot it in themselves. Though I'm fairly sure that if they did (do) then it would be Not In The Public Interest.

Whilst true, it is Trust dependant. For Example if the patient is in cardiac arrest, and it would be detrimental to the patient to wait for police or fire to arrive to force entry then ambulance crews will and have done so themselves.

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21 hours ago, Owen_Walker said:

This depends on whether that person has the capacity to tell them to leave in the first instance

True. But you can't stay to make an assessment and capacity should be assumed till proven otherwise. So whilst true may not be of much use.

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BlueBob
On 09/11/2020 at 23:08, Owen_Walker said:

Whilst true, it is Trust dependant. For Example if the patient is in cardiac arrest, and it would be detrimental to the patient to wait for police or fire to arrive to force entry then ambulance crews will and have done so themselves.

That entry option, that’s to say without a direct statutory power, IMHO would equally apply to Mabel and George the nosy next door neighbours though.  
then again, not sure why I’m really replying to a troll like resurrection of a five year old post 🙈

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