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Legislation for Ambulance Service forcing entry to property.


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Through it into the mix... What if the paramedic was a special ;-)

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Wellying doors in is one policing demand I don't want to hand off to another agency!

Never known fire to go to an ambulance entry assist. But i suppose if wouldn't know if they did.

Its semantics, they were on the property illegally. Had they not gone in they wouldnt have been in situation in the first place. I've lost count the number of times I have seen the Mental Capacity Ac

PCSO's have the power to force entry to save life, limb or prevent serious damage to property. It makes sense for EMT's & Paramedics to have a similar power granted?

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Sectioned Detection

I think that ambulance staff, especially paramedics, may find themselves in a difficult position when having to make decisions under pressure. Regardless of what the law says, they could find themselves having to account for their actions before the HPC. Ultimately, they could get struck off.

I'm not sure that they would get struck off for being over zealous in forcing entry if they had a reasonable belief. I am sure that they could find themselves fighting for their professional registration if they failed to act when clearly it was a life or limb situation.

I disagree I think they would be on much thinner ice arguing an illegal act was the proper course of action. There's a huge difference between being unable to act and not acting when you can. Cops have the same attitude, then something goes pear shaped and they arguing justification from a weak position. In many cases there is a legal way of doing things but cops and madics are impatient so break the law as a quick fix as these cops are now only too aware of

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-kent-22405861

Found not guilty but I wouldn't fancy going through that on a legal back foot.

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ParochialYokal

Thanks for the input, SD.

I guess in my mind I have a fixed scenario of paramedics being called out to a property and they see a person collapsed in the hallway, like an old lady. I think that this is vivid in my mind, as I once lived in a house where this happened before moving in and the crowbar marks where still in the door from where ambo forced entry. But life often isn't that straight forward.

In the scenario that you linked I can understand why the matter was put before a Jury to be honest. Even if they acted with the best of intentions, the deceased does appear to have been treated like a criminal than someone that was unwell and needed medical help.

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ParochialYokal

but cops and madicsare impatient so break the law as a quick fix

Lol Was that a typo or is that official terminology for Mad Paramedics :) Edited by ParochialYokal
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A lot of it is also to do with security of the property afterwards, if it's a scoop and go generally no one is around to ensure the property remains secure.

Who would fork out the cost as well?

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SimonT

I think the difference to the case that went to court is that it's not against the law to break in and save someone. You have a reasonable excuse.

Getting in and trying to get an absconder back is just against the law. There is no consent issue, you can't do it.

I appreciate why they did it, but thats why they got done.

The party line at work is that of you do the wrong thing for the right reasons you will be fine. But, we all know that's totally rubbish and they will crucify you.

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Sectioned Detection

Lol Was that a typo or is that official terminology for Mad Paramedics :)

In my house I call mad paramedics "the wife"

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Sectioned Detection

A lot of it is also to do with security of the property afterwards, if it's a scoop and go generally no one is around to ensure the property remains secure.

Who would fork out the cost as well?

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Isn't that the point, police have to supply staff after an arrest for board up why not the NHS? Also why should police foot the bill? Fire brigade play that game all the time.

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Sectioned Detection

I think the difference to the case that went to court is that it's not against the law to break in and save someone. You have a reasonable excuse.

Getting in and trying to get an absconder back is just against the law. There is no consent issue, you can't do it.

I appreciate why they did it, but thats why they got done.

The party line at work is that of you do the wrong thing for the right reasons you will be fine. But, we all know that's totally rubbish and they will crucify you.

Its semantics, they were on the property illegally. Had they not gone in they wouldnt have been in situation in the first place. I've lost count the number of times I have seen the Mental Capacity Act used for a suicidal person because the MH team won't turn out or a warrant will take longer than they would like. Why? If the law doesnt allow it dont do it. If somebkdy can show me a prosecution attempt for a person NOT breaking the law and a person dying I'll change my stance but I can show several where police tried to do 'the right thing' where it has bit them on the ass. There are a number of cases where other organisations follow the law and a person dies but apart from public criticism there are no issues. Cops need to play smart and do the same, for an organisation that deals with law all the time we're sh1t at understanding what it entails.

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SimonT

Quite agree. Breaking the law for the right reasons is still breaking the law.

But presumed consent is something we use all the time. Like when we search a front garden for discarded drugs or chase the bad guy over fences. I think kicking a door in to save someone is right up there.

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ParochialYokal

I think that the trouble is police officers do sometimes get prosecuted for misconduct in public office when they fail to do something.

In comparison, Drs are responsible for numerous 'avoidable deaths' every single day and society doesn't expect or want them to be criminalised.

There may also be a mindset issue as well, as a person who 'escapes' from psychiatric care is seen to be 'unlawfully at large', whereas a person that walks out of a normal hospital setting is just seen as a patient exercising their right not to be treated.

Edited by ParochialYokal
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Sectioned Detection

I think that the trouble is police officers do sometimes get prosecuted for misconduct in public office when they fail to do something.

I agree but it is always when they've failed to do something they should have done, were duty bound to do and more importantly is legal to do. Even when to most people it would be the right thing to do for example geting an autistic boy who can't swim out of a swimmingpool.

http://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWCA/Civ/2013/69.html

If cops take responsibility they have to accept the consequences when it goes wrong. I regularly hear cops moaning about the jobs they're sent to not being a police matter, then turn up and start running the show. I don't make the laws I follow them and enforce them, I don't bend and break them because it suits my moral compass. You would'nt lock up a suspected robber with no evidence so why boot a door in without reasonable grounds.

Edited by Sectioned Detection
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ParochialYokal

I don't dispute anything that you say. In fact, I agree with every word!

I was just saying 'the problem is'...

The 'problem' is probably going to become far more profound as Officers increasingly get called to deal with health and social care issues, yet continue to do so with a 'police' mindset of treating difficult people like criminals.

It's a shame that training isn't better and does not cover the specific areas where the police get called in to deal with when people fall through the gaps. You can't train for every scenario but I am not sure that the basics are covered adequately?

In relation to the autistic boy in the swimming pool... I do remember reading about that sometime ago and I was somewhat shocked at how the incident was handled to be honest. It was handled with the best on intentions but if they had done 'nothing' then I wonder if the outcome would have been somewhat different.

Edited by ParochialYokal
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SimonT

The problem is, when we turn up, most of the time its now on us. We are responsible for what we do and what we do not do.

This is often about other agencies calling us because they cant go, dont want to go or have gone and dont know what to do. So we go and try and do our best.

 

Forcing entry for ambulance is a doddle, easy to do and justify. The incident in the pool, it was a bad one. We have people with certain learning difficulties in our area and they are very hard to deal with, which is why we often get called by the people who should be looking after them as they cant cope.

 

Why we, who are not dedicated care providers for someone with unique needs would be able to do better i dont know (although i do, its because we are not the person making the call and are now responsible)  But its now on us and we do what we can. 

 

We have a lot of training. The most important thing we should be trained in is to say 'thats not a police matter'

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