Complaints against officers

[Fedster + 1,307]

The risk to rural response officers has been raised after two Devon and Cornwall officers were stabbed in a "frenzied and sustained attack".

Andy Berry

Date - 9th July 2021
By - Chris Smith

The risk of attack to rural response officers has been raised by the Police Federation after a horrific knife attack.

Two Devon and Cornwall patrol officers have been treated in hospital after sustaining stab wounds while responding to an incident.

The force confirmed a 60-year-old man has been arrested on suspicion of attempted murder after the officers sustained stab wounds in Princetown in the early hours of this morning [Friday 9 July].

Andy Berry, Chairman of Devon and Cornwall Police Federation said: “Given the rural nature of where this incident occurred, our colleagues were fortunate that other officers were in the vicinity and were able to render urgent assistance in a matter of minutes.

“One can only imagine the possible consequences had this not been the case."

Officers were called to a report of an assault 11.55pm on Thursday 8 July.

A male suspect was said to have left the scene and officers subsequently carried out enquiries to locate him.  

At around 3am, two male police officers encountered a suspect and sustained a number of stab and laceration wounds.

Despite their injuries, the man was arrested, with help from Armed Response officers who then gave first aid to the officers.

One officer sustained injuries to his arms and has been discharged from hospital.

The other remains in hospital where he is receiving treatment for injuries to his face and arms.  

Devon and Cornwall Police said: “A 60-year-old local man has been arrested on suspicion of attempted murder and remains in police custody at this time.”

Andy Berry, said: “This incident brings home the dangers that officers face during every shift - even in incidents like this where their objective was the welfare of the male who had been reported missing by his family.

“Our colleagues were subjected to a frenzied and sustained bladed weapon assault."

He added the welfare of the officers involved and their families is a priority.

“I have spoken with the Chief Constable this morning and have been reassured that the welfare of the injured officers and their families will be prioritised and that looking after all the other officers who were involved," he said.

“At this time my thoughts are with the officers and their families and we will over the coming days and weeks be working with the force to ensure that they and their families receive the support that they need.”

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[Wikicop20 + 186]

I think the UK just needs to modernise and arm their officers. It's not going to change things massively, they won't turn into homicidal maniacs and it can be done (NI shows that). 

Armed officers already seem to do a lot of traffic duties etc, with pistols on their thighs, with no one taking a blind bit of notice.

Even the Italians now give their local traffic police firearms. Why is it fair or OK that these poor cops on their own get attacked and [nearly] killed, but not OK to carry that tool that can stop that happening?

Best recovery for the officers involved. 

[Zulu 22 + 4,571]

Rural officers have always been in danger because of their remoteness. You have to be able to hold your own until the cavalry arrive. Routine. arming is not the answer. We do not have the same problems as Ireland or Italy. One plagued by Sectarian terrorism and one plagued with Mafioso and feuding. But arming of Police has been flogged to death on this Forum before.

The dangers of rural policing has never been truly appreciated by other non rural officers.

 

[Ether + 1,395]

1 hour ago, Wilts20 said:

I think the UK just needs to modernise and arm their officers. It's not going to change things massively, they won't turn into homicidal maniacs and it can be done (NI shows that). 

Armed officers already seem to do a lot of traffic duties etc, with pistols on their thighs, with no one taking a blind bit of notice.

Even the Italians now give their local traffic police firearms. Why is it fair or OK that these poor cops on their own get attacked and [nearly] killed, but not OK to carry that tool that can stop that happening?

Best recovery for the officers involved. 

Talking of arming on this forum is fraught with resistance from the Dinosaur Brigade.  

[SimonT + 1,185]

I'm rural, I know I'm 20 minutes from backup at best and basically not at worst. 

I have never felt the need for a firearm, if I had one in the car I couldn't use it, if it was on me, then I may have given the suspect a gun. But what do I know about it. 

I would like a couple more colleagues, maybe some backup. That would be nice. We are at half strength on a good day and it's never a good day. 

[BlueBob + 692]

There is a massive difference in the approach of a city officer and a rural one,  one really understands support can be 20+ mins away, the other wonders if such things are just a rumour.   
Amazing  the management logic of double crew in urban areas and often not even thought about for the “sleepy hollows”. 

[Radman + 2,163]

I'll never forget a colleague of mine stopping a van full of lads who had been out stealing on his own for a search. 

He called for backup but this being BTP out in the sticks it was 20+ minutes away. 

Anyhow one of these lads turned around to him and had the brass to actually say "You're on your own out here with us aren't you?" apparently with this grin on his face. 

Rural policing doesn't get the kind of investment it really should, travelling criminals and crime groups taking advantage of slow response times and lack of adequate policing on the fringes of counties aren't a good mix. 

[POM0272 242]

I think the big problem comes with the government/bosses looking at pure number of incidents/crimes v the number of officers, which is what happens. This might seem a sensible correlation as there are more crimes/incidents and - in my experience having worked both urban and rural - more violence and violence towards/anti police sentiment in urban areas.

The issue always comes when the wheel comes off. And in the above scenario it’s a massive judgement call to take out Mr Gobby and see if his mates jump in or leg it.

In rural areas you have to back each other up more and cross invisible borders to support each other.

[Wikicop20 + 186]

On 11/07/2021 at 16:24, Ether said:

Talking of arming on this forum is fraught with resistance from the Dinosaur Brigade.  

Indeed. It is something that should be discussed from time-to-time, of course it is a strong topic on both sides. 

[Wikicop20 + 186]

On 12/07/2021 at 12:57, SimonT said:

I'm rural, I know I'm 20 minutes from backup at best and basically not at worst. 

I have never felt the need for a firearm, if I had one in the car I couldn't use it, if it was on me, then I may have given the suspect a gun. But what do I know about it. 

I would like a couple more colleagues, maybe some backup. That would be nice. We are at half strength on a good day and it's never a good day. 

That's an interesting perspective, do you mean, they (suspects) may take the weapon from you by force in a scuffle type scenario? 

[Father Jack 253]

11 hours ago, Wilts20 said:

That's an interesting perspective, do you mean, they (suspects) may take the weapon from you by force in a scuffle type scenario? 

It is a possibility. Just like it's possible that officers can be beaten with their own baton, or sprayed with their own PAVA. Which does unfortunately happen, on occasion.

In my old force, pistols were secured to the holster by means of a coiled Kevlar lanyard. Basically a toughened version of what you'd have securing a PAVA "cup" to it's holder. I presume that this is standard in other forces, as well?

I've never tried cutting through one, but they felt fairly sturdy. Certainly almost impossible to remove in the middle of a dust up (without a pair of snips or a multi tool).

Edited July 15, 2021 by Father Jack
Punctuation and spelling.

[Wikicop20 + 186]

8 minutes ago, Father Jack said:

It is a possibility. Just like it's possible that officers can be beaten with their own baton, or sprayed with their own PAVA. Which does unfortunately happen, on occasion.

In my old force, pistols were secured to the holster by means of a coiled lanyard. Basically a toughened version of what you'd have securing a PAVA "cup" to it's holder. I presume that this is standard in other forces, as well?

I've never tried cutting through one, but they felt fairly sturdy. Certainly almost impossible to remove in the middle of a dust up (without a pair of snips or a multi tool).

That's what I was thinking. Most AFOs that I see have a lanyard with their pistol. It's popular in Europe, I suspect mandatory in some areas. 

Also, there is a school of thought that says if you let someone take your weapon systems from you, you need to up your game in either controlled aggression or self-defence tactics. 

[Father Jack 253]

1 hour ago, Wilts20 said:

That's what I was thinking. Most AFOs that I see have a lanyard with their pistol. It's popular in Europe, I suspect mandatory in some areas. 

Also, there is a school of thought that says if you let someone take your weapon systems from you, you need to up your game in either controlled aggression or self-defence tactics. 

Also if I recall, our holsters also had a locking "hood" feature which also enhanced retention in the holster itself, but easy to draw when needed.

Forgetting about firearms for a second, my personal thoughts are that Officer Safety Training in general is woefully inadequate. Definite room for improvement in all aspects of it. Other simple things such as issuing "Hindi caps" with batons, greatly improves your ability to hang onto one in a struggle.

When you undertake TASER and firearms training, weapon retention is covered. This definitely informs how you interact with people, when dealing with them, cuffing them etc.

 

 

 

[Father Jack 253]

I live in Devon, I'm also familiar with Princetown. It is literally in the middle of Dartmoor, remote even by Devon standards. Devon is a massive county. I'm also reliably informed by serving friends that resources are spread very thinly outside of larger population centres. With 30 minute blue light runs not being unheard of to back up colleagues.

AFOs also carry out traffic duties, as well as their primary role in Devon and Cornwall. Princetown is also very far from any major roads. That being said it would seem to be extraordinarily fortunate that armed back up arrived in time to assist and render first aid. I'm mindful that the situation could have so easily ended with two fatalities, instead.

 

[SimonT + 1,185]

Part of my point is that we currently have a collective panic if a suspect could possibly have a firearm, let alone use one. 

But if response or neighborhood carry on person, there is a firearm at every job. And while I'm reasonably capable of handling myself, I am frequently single crewed and have been knocked unconscious by someone who blindsided me at a neighborhood dispute.

Firearms officers are double crewed, can't do prisoner transport. 

We could all be trained better, with better kit, more support, resources and a functional criminal justice system, but we ain't and I don't think guns are the way out of that problem.