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NCA. DoubleVPN takedown: NCA takes UK server of criminal network offline


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4 minutes ago, Equin0x said:

Assuming they are otherwise following the law and not doing anything to draw attention to the car, wouldn't the stop risk revealing your hand? Will criminals really believe you that it was a "bog standard" check and it's just bad luck, or will they realize the only possible way you could have known to stop that specific car was by having access to messages that you shouldn't? Particularly if every other criminal using that app also suffers incredible bad luck too....

Criminals tend to ignore the law in more than one way

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3 hours ago, Equin0x said:

Assuming they are otherwise following the law and not doing anything to draw attention to the car, wouldn't the stop risk revealing your hand? Will criminals really believe you that it was a "bog standard" check and it's just bad luck, or will they realize the only possible way you could have known to stop that specific car was by having access to messages that you shouldn't? Particularly if every other criminal using that app also suffers incredible bad luck too....

You seem to have a habit of showing a total ignorance of the law or how Policing is carried out. There are officers who have an intuition when something is not right. There are many criminals who are apprehended purely through luck, some by good management. I doubt there is an officer on here who has not heard the phrase from a person in custody "How the F did you know that" Many assume that they have been "Grassed up" and I have certainly let them believe that. Who am I to leave them wondering who they can trust. As for using the same App, they use the same MO, same mode of transport , share the same habits, routes etc, the list could go on.

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22 minutes ago, Zulu 22 said:

Many assume that they have been "Grassed up" and I have certainly let them believe that. Who am I to leave them wondering who they can trust.

Don't any of them ever go further than that? I'd assume he people in charge of drugs trafficking have a good idea on the statistics of how often their couriers get caught versus how often they don't. If there is suddenly an extreme change in those statistics and the police are having far more success than could realistically be attributed to luck or officer intuition, wouldn't that indicate a possible compromise somewhere? And if they go looking for a common link between all the arrests and consider the possibility that the communications were not secure? Although as you say, there is probably more than one common link they could blame. Admiral Doenitz did notice that our success against U-Boats dropped just after he added a 4th wheel to the navy enigma but there was a few other things that had also recently changed in the war around that time and he eventually concluded they were likely responsible and his codes were safe

 

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41 minutes ago, Equin0x said:

Don't any of them ever go further than that? I'd assume he people in charge of drugs trafficking have a good idea on the statistics of how often their couriers get caught versus how often they don't. If there is suddenly an extreme change in those statistics and the police are having far more success than could realistically be attributed to luck or officer intuition, wouldn't that indicate a possible compromise somewhere? And if they go looking for a common link between all the arrests and consider the possibility that the communications were not secure? Although as you say, there is probably more than one common link they could blame. Admiral Doenitz did notice that our success against U-Boats dropped just after he added a 4th wheel to the navy enigma but there was a few other things that had also recently changed in the war around that time and he eventually concluded they were likely responsible and his codes were safe

 

You are talking at strategic levels and trying to insinuate that the entire criminal world thinks that way, they don’t. 
 

As tactics and techniques change so do the criminals, but not all criminals are particularly clever.

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1 hour ago, Equin0x said:

Don't any of them ever go further than that? I'd assume he people in charge of drugs trafficking have a good idea on the statistics of how often their couriers get caught versus how often they don't. If there is suddenly an extreme change in those statistics and the police are having far more success than could realistically be attributed to luck or officer intuition, wouldn't that indicate a possible compromise somewhere? And if they go looking for a common link between all the arrests and consider the possibility that the communications were not secure? Although as you say, there is probably more than one common link they could blame. Admiral Doenitz did notice that our success against U-Boats dropped just after he added a 4th wheel to the navy enigma but there was a few other things that had also recently changed in the war around that time and he eventually concluded they were likely responsible and his codes were safe

 

I once arrested a very prolific high class, and successful Burglar. I told him in the interview that he was very good criminal. He replied that he wasn't because, a good successful criminal knows when to stop, when to move on as statistics tell you that your chances of getting caught increase with each job. All criminals are the same, they expect to get caught at some time but tell themselves that they know better. They are nit surprised to get caught, they just consider that their luck ran out. Forgive me but the second world war was a long time ago.

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21 hours ago, Equin0x said:

Don't any of them ever go further than that? I'd assume he people in charge of drugs trafficking have a good idea on the statistics of how often their couriers get caught versus how often they don't. If there is suddenly an extreme change in those statistics and the police are having far more success than could realistically be attributed to luck or officer intuition, wouldn't that indicate a possible compromise somewhere? And if they go looking for a common link between all the arrests and consider the possibility that the communications were not secure? Although as you say, there is probably more than one common link they could blame. Admiral Doenitz did notice that our success against U-Boats dropped just after he added a 4th wheel to the navy enigma but there was a few other things that had also recently changed in the war around that time and he eventually concluded they were likely responsible and his codes were safe

 

Some of them do. Like in all businesses and walks of life, some are smarter than others. The police catch lots of dumb criminals and not so many smart ones. The smarter the criminal the less likely they are to get caught. 
A very simple example has been given of a car being stopped under the guise of a routine stop following intelligence. Those happen and can be successful but not always. The smarter criminals will do dummy runs, make last minute changes, run decoy cars along with the ‘target’ car, feed in false information to see if it is acted on, conduct ‘mosaic’ attacks using subject access requests to see if there’s been any pattern of info known. 
Using one or many of such techniques criminals can work out where their leaks are and avoid the attention of the police. 
And, like in warfare, they have also sacrificed some of their ‘troops’ for the greater overall benefits to the organisation. 

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  • 2 weeks later...

 

On 02/07/2021 at 22:23, Equin0x said:

But if the evidence is data that could only have come from intercepted messages on an encrypted app

According to the OP's link, this wasn't intercept material but data from siezed servers - there's a BIG difference.

 

On 02/07/2021 at 22:23, Equin0x said:

then surely the defence would realize the app is compromised even if the prosecution don't explicitly say so?

All users - not just "the defence" - would have realised it's been compromised as soon as the NCA issued its press release. Maybe even earlier if the word got out when the servers were seized or once the first arrests were made

On 02/07/2021 at 22:23, Equin0x said:

Or do the police practice parallel construction in cases like that?

And:

On 02/07/2021 at 22:23, Equin0x said:

Is there a similar practice in place today for sensitive cases like this

Yep: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parallel_construction

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There is a huge problem with Wikipedia as the Co-founder Larry Sanger warns.  It is being impregnated with "False News" . According to him " Wikipedia can no longer be trusted as a source of unbiased information since the online encyclopedia's left-leaning volunteers cut out any news that doesn't fit their agenda, according to the site’s co-founder".

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9793263/Nobody-trust-Wikipedia-founder-Larry-Sanger-warns.html

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1 hour ago, Zulu 22 said:

There is a huge problem with Wikipedia as the Co-founder Larry Sanger warns.  It is being impregnated with "False News" . According to him " Wikipedia can no longer be trusted as a source of unbiased information since the online encyclopedia's left-leaning volunteers cut out any news that doesn't fit their agenda, according to the site’s co-founder".

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9793263/Nobody-trust-Wikipedia-founder-Larry-Sanger-warns.html

The Daily Fail is certainly not a credible source of unbiased information! I know which of the two I would rather trust.

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Oh, the irony

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1 hour ago, Father Jack said:

The Daily Fail is certainly not a credible source of unbiased information! I know which of the two I would rather trust.

I think that the Co-Founder of Wiki, Larry Sanger, might just be credible though. I tried to amend something once, it was either about the Moors Murder's of the Yorkshire Ripper and the amendment was quashed. The amendment I tried to make was 101% correct.

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4 hours ago, Zulu 22 said:

There is a huge problem with Wikipedia as the Co-founder Larry Sanger warns.  It is being impregnated with "False News" . According to him " Wikipedia can no longer be trusted as a source of unbiased information since the online encyclopedia's left-leaning volunteers cut out any news that doesn't fit their agenda, according to the site’s co-founder".

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9793263/Nobody-trust-Wikipedia-founder-Larry-Sanger-warns.html

People misuse the term fake news/misinformation these days. If there is a fact they don't like, they will try to argue against the fact itself. On another forum I'm on someone had their phone seized and swore blind that the police weren't allowed to do that. His was a relatively trivial crime and I don't agree with the police seizing devices in cases like that, but I can accept the fact is that they do have that right. But pointing that out was interpreted as me agreeing with the seizure itself.

You annoy the life out of me sometimes zulu with your very old school disciplinarian world view, but you don't say anything which is actually misinformation. You're not saying anything factually incorrect, you just have different views of how things should be.

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We are here to enforce the law by any legal means.  Phones, documents, it matters not. If someone wants to live by information from Wiki then they might be in for a nasty shock sometimes.

I took an oath to Protect life and property, to Prevent and Detect crime and to prosecute offenders against the Queen's Peace. That is what I did without doing anything illegal. If people want to commit offences then they should be prepared to accept the consequences.

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On 16/07/2021 at 22:07, Zulu 22 said:

We are here to enforce the law by any legal means.  Phones, documents, it matters not. If someone wants to live by information from Wiki then they might be in for a nasty shock sometimes.

I took an oath to Protect life and property, to Prevent and Detect crime and to prosecute offenders against the Queen's Peace. That is what I did without doing anything illegal. If people want to commit offences then they should be prepared to accept the consequences.

Certainly agree with you Zulu 22 with your comments, and if people do the crime and get caught then they must pay the price and do the time 👍

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