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Evening standard. Drug dealer who stockpiled submachine guns at north London flat jailed for 16 years


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So he goes no comment at interview and pleads guilty at court. Knows how to play the game, doesn’t he? A very dangerous individual off the streets for at least 8 years.

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4 hours ago, Dave SYP said:

So he goes no comment at interview and pleads guilty at court. Knows how to play the game, doesn’t he?

If you expect criminals to make life easy for you and not take the approach that yields the most benefit for them, you're going to be disappointed. Going no comment and waiting to see what happened was probably his most logical move. There's always a possibility it won't go to court, or the case will be dropped. If that happens and he's stayed silent then he's won. If he confessed in interview, he seals his fate.

Edited by Equin0x
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3 minutes ago, Equin0x said:

If you expect criminals to make life easy for you and not take the approach that yields the most benefit for them, you're going to be disappointed. Going no comment and waiting to see what happened was probably his most logical move.

I have expected nothing less for many decades. Their logic is walking through a door held open by the system and that’s what it was designed for. I think his neighbourhood would have felt safer if he’d been doing the 19 year stretch, but hey ho!

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The only time they make it easy is when they go "No Comment"  It is amazing how much damage that can do your case.

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2 hours ago, Zulu 22 said:

The only time they make it easy is when they go "No Comment"  It is amazing how much damage that can do your case.

How do you mean? Obviously if someone has an innocent explanation but goes no comment they might have the hassle of court, being charged, but I don't see how going no comment can actually damage a case. The way the system is set up, if I was a crim I would go no comment until I knew exactly how much/what evidence the police had. If the case against me was overwhelming, I could then simply plead guilty and get the reduced sentence. Going no comment would not have damaged my case in any way, offering only potential benefits (the case might not go to court, witnesses might move abroad or not show up or whatever) with no drawbacks.

Edited by Equin0x
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^ you ought to watch 24 Hours in Police Custody.

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3 minutes ago, Indiana Jones said:

^ you ought to watch 24 Hours in Police Custody.

He’s too busy watching Zulu over and over again 🙄😂

He has a point though........

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39 minutes ago, Indiana Jones said:

^ you ought to watch 24 Hours in Police Custody.

I do as it happens! But I don't recall ever seeing en example of it really harming anyones case.

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1 hour ago, Equin0x said:

How do you mean? Obviously if someone has an innocent explanation but goes no comment they might have the hassle of court, being charged, but I don't see how going no comment can actually damage a case. The way the system is set up, if I was a crim I would go no comment until I knew exactly how much/what evidence the police had. If the case against me was overwhelming, I could then simply plead guilty and get the reduced sentence. Going no comment would not have damaged my case in any way, offering only potential benefits (the case might not go to court, witnesses might move abroad or not show up or whatever) with no drawbacks.

Sounds like a loophole to me. Perhaps we should put something in the caution to stop that.

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12 minutes ago, SD said:

Sounds like a loophole to me. Perhaps we should put something in the caution to stop that.

Fair enough, I suppose it could hurt their case if they give an explanation after previously going no comment. Although the most logical thing there would be for them to give that explanation at the time.

Edited by Equin0x
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Oh, it’s so entertaining on here sometimes 🤣😂 

Logic has dawned and everything is right in the world 😁

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7 hours ago, Equin0x said:

Going no comment and waiting to see what happened was probably his most logical move.

Oh, no. That is an absolute dream. If only more suspects went “No Comment”, the easier the job would be 😂
 

7 hours ago, Equin0x said:

There's always a possibility it won't go to court, or the case will be dropped

Not if they go “No Comment” 😅. They’d be better off giving an account. There’s more likelihood of it not continuing. If they go “No Comment”, it’s more than likely going to Court as an NGAP. 

 

2 hours ago, Equin0x said:

I would go no comment until I knew exactly how much/what evidence the police had.

This is what disclosure is for. It should always be before plea hearing. However, I take your point. It isn’t always. I have a case at the moment where this clearly hasn’t been done. The person arrested is clearly seen on CCTV, unequivocally proving one of the offences. Yet, they plead NG for this and G to the others. The CPS, in their infinite wisdom, has decided to call all witnesses - despite all of them not being able to provide anything further and the CCTV clearly not being provided to the defence. I don’t blame him for not going NG at all!

2 hours ago, Equin0x said:

If the case against me was overwhelming, I could then simply plead guilty and get the reduced sentence. Going no comment would not have damaged my case in any way, offering only potential benefits (the case might not go to court, witnesses might move abroad or not show up or whatever) with no drawbacks.

I see your point. This practice has been going on for years. I kid you not, Police forces, Police officers, the Courts, the Criminal Justice System (et. al) have been crying out with wails of “we have no money” for several years. Look at articles in the papers spanning the recent past and you’ll find them all sounding like they’re at the end of their tether. If it wasn’t so sad and sopping, it would be hilarious. All parties have an abundance of funds, but they simply don’t understand wastage, nor the Criminal Procedure Rules and Practice Directions 2000. It is an absolute fallacy that Police/CJS has “no money”, but they would lead to believe it true 😂

I would like to suggest that your comment on ‘wait and see then change plea at the last minute’ theory is rubbish. But it isn’t. It’s entirely valid! In fact, it’s common practice. And, do you know what, it’s entirely fair on the defendant because the Police/CPS don’t provide the Defence with the disclosure rightly deserved. I see this DAILY. And I am Police. It is so frustrating. If you don’t believe my account, read The Secret Barrister’s book(s) and you’ll see the degree of the issue . It isn’t pretty!

 

2 hours ago, Equin0x said:

Going no comment would not have damaged my case in any way, offering only potential benefits (the case might not go to court, witnesses might move abroad or not show up or whatever) with no drawbacks.

Not strictly true but, again, take your point. The case might not go to Court. Witnesses might move abroad or not show up. But, they may not. Your point being that you haven’t ‘lost out’ by pushing it to the 11th hour. This is the point I get. You’re absolutely right. The reduction in sentence applies to the 11th hour - and will continue to do so until the Police and the CPS can provide the proper disclosure. 

Sometimes I think I’d make a fantastic defence Solicitor / Barrister. I would have a field day with most cases that pass across my desk - that I have no doubt. Instead, I strive to instil a higher standard so that complainants and defendants receive fair Justice. Until we (Police) start seeing ‘Defendants’ as a mutual party - ‘going where the evidence takes you to prove or disprove’ - then we are on a hiding to nothing.

Suspects. Aren’t. Guilty !!!!

Edited by BizzieBee
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22 minutes ago, BizzieBee said:

Not if they go “No Comment” 😅. They’d be better off giving an account. There’s more likelihood of it not continuing. If they go “No Comment”, it’s more than likely going to Court as an NGAP. 

 

This is what disclosure is for. It should always be before plea hearing. However, I take your point. It isn’t always. I have a case at the moment where this clearly hasn’t been done. The person arrested is clearly seen on CCTV, unequivocally proving one of the offences. Yet, they plead NG for this and G to the others. The CPS, in their infinite wisdom, has decided to call all witnesses - despite all of them not being able to provide anything further and the CCTV clearly not being provided to the defence. I don’t blame him for not going NG at all!

I see your point. This practice has been going on for years. I kid you not, Police forces, Police officers, the Courts, the Criminal Justice System (et. al) have been crying out with wails of “we have no money” for several years. Look at articles in the papers spanning the recent past and you’ll find them all sounding like they’re at the end of their tether. If it wasn’t so sad and sopping, it would be hilarious. All parties have an abundance of funds, but they simply don’t understand wastage, nor the Criminal Procedure Rules and Practice Directions 2000. It is an absolute fallacy that Police/CJS has “no money”, but they would lead to believe it true 😂

I would like to suggest that your comment on ‘wait and see then change plea at the last minute’ theory is rubbish. But it isn’t. It’s entirely valid! In fact, it’s common practice. And, do you know what, it’s entirely fair on the defendant because the Police/CPS don’t provide the Defence with the disclosure rightly deserved. I see this DAILY. And I am Police. It is so frustrating. If you don’t believe my account, read The Secret Barrister’s book(s) and you’ll see the degree of the issue . It isn’t pretty!

 

Not strictly true but, again, take your point. The case might not go to Court. Witnesses might move abroad or not show up. But, they may not. Your point being that you haven’t ‘lost out’ by pushing it to the 11th hour. This is the point I get. You’re absolutely right. The reduction in sentence applies to the 11th hour - and will continue to do so until the Police and the CPS can provide the proper disclosure. 

Sometimes I think I’d make a fantastic defence Solicitor / Barrister. I would have a field day with most cases that pass across my desk - that I have no doubt. Instead, I strive to instil a higher standard so that complainants and defendants receive fair Justice. Until we (Police) start seeing ‘Defendants’ as a mutual party - ‘going where the evidence takes you to prove or disprove’ - then we are on a hiding to nothing.

Suspects. Aren’t. Guilty !!!!

Why would a guilty person be better giving an account instead of "wait and see"? From what I understand as long as they plead guilty when it goes to court, they still get the same reduced sentence whether they went no comment or gave a full account.

Edited by Equin0x
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8 minutes ago, Equin0x said:

Why would a guilty person be better giving an account instead of "wait and see"? From what I understand as long as they do plead guilty when it goes to court, they still get the same reduced sentence.

They get a reduced sentence for pleading Guilty. However, the practice of going ‘Not Guilty’ goes on until the very day. That’s the issue - meanwhile costs mount (often not retrievable). Often, on the day, further evidence comes to light which is compelling - meaning the person will change their plea to Guilty at the 11th hour. 

When someone gives an account - raising defences - often it’s deemed not meeting the full code test due to lack of evidence to prove otherwise (where applicable) or not in the public interest. If the defendant provides ‘No Comment’, then sometimes it’s a matter for the Court to decide (if there’s enough evidence to meet the standard without needing to disprove a defence [depending if it’s for the prosecution / defence to prove])
 

The way it should work is that the Defence is apprised of all material which enables them to base their plea. But that doesn’t happen. So your point is entirely valid. The CJS is flawed - and I cannot apportion blame to the defendant to compel them to plead Guilty where the evidence isn’t there beyond all reasonable doubt.

However, if they don’t provide an account at the time of questioning and then rely on some form of defence, and the evidence is against them, they will have a hard time explaining it later on.  
 

For example, I have a case of theft. The CCTV is absolutely compelling. You see them commit the offence without question. This likely hasn’t been seen by the defence and they have entered the plea of ‘Not Guilty’ - on the basis that the items were previously purchased. The CCTV shows them looking around, concealing items down their trousers, then leaving - without making any attempt to pay. During questioning they have provided “No Comment” to all questions - including “No Comment” to a special warning about the items being found concealed on their person. This is absolute gold dust, as they have now decided that their story is they previously purchased the items 😅

But, after all the work is done in bringing it to Court for the NG plea, they are entitled to change their plea to Guilty. I don’t blame them - as they clearly haven’t seen the footage which shows them absolutely stealing said items 😂. Meanwhile, all witnesses are Court-Warned and take time off to attend, despite knowing absolutely full well they will change their plea and not be required. 

So, your point is valid. There should be a cut-off point. But there can’t be if they aren’t in receipt of the full facts. 

The Criminal Justice System is flawed - let down by Police and the CPS

 

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