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Why do some police agencies not have PAVA/CS?


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Indiana Jones
9 hours ago, Father Jack said:

Perhaps, but I can't think of any non crown servants, (i.e. private individuals or organisations) who would have justification or lawful authority to carry PAVA on the mainland UK.

Is in the original post, no? Wilts20 gave you Port of Dover Police. They're not Crown Servants, but are constables, and do carry spray.

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Just popping back whilst we wait on the OPs FOI results.  I would assume the non-HO entities would not have the legal exemption as a starter, then the necessity question and after that would be the qu

You’re not really!   Otherwise you could have just deleted the comment before posting.   A derisory and wholly unwarranted comment and one deserves a response that as the Dragons Den says “I’m out”

You could of course £o an FOI request and come back to the forum with the outcome😀

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Father Jack
11 hours ago, Indiana Jones said:

Is in the original post, no? Wilts20 gave you Port of Dover Police. They're not Crown Servants, but are constables, and do carry spray.

My apologies, you are indeed correct. The Port of Dover would appear to be run by a statutory corporation, thus making it's officers a truly "private" Police force. 

Please forgive my ignorance. Being based nearly 300 miles away from the port, at the time. They were never a force I had any interaction with, during my service. 

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Father Jack

While based at MDP Wethersfield, I had the displeasure of visiting Colchester once. I did observe RMP on foot patrol around the town. They appeared to be equipped with extendable batons, rigid cuffs, and airwaves. Couldn't say for certain about PAVA, though.

My only other interaction with the RMP would have been as a serviceman, twenty plus years ago. When they still carried wooden truncheons or pickaxe handles.

If you're able to zoom in on the attached photo. Look at the "monkey", sorry Red Cap on the left. To the right of his cuff pouch, would appear to be a PAVA size pouch with something in it. 

royal-military-police-48c6dd24-43be-40e9-b4bc-b86f542b962-resize-750.jpeg

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Ether
30 minutes ago, Father Jack said:

While based at MDP Wethersfield, I had the displeasure of visiting Colchester once. I did observe RMP on foot patrol around the town. They appeared to be equipped with extendable batons, rigid cuffs, and airwaves. Couldn't say for certain about PAVA, though.

My only other interaction with the RMP would have been as a serviceman, twenty plus years ago. When they still carried wooden truncheons or pickaxe handles.

If you're able to zoom in on the attached photo. Look at the "monkey", sorry Red Cap on the left. To the right of his cuff pouch, would appear to be a PAVA size pouch with something in it. 

royal-military-police-48c6dd24-43be-40e9-b4bc-b86f542b962-resize-750.jpeg

No military police carry PAVA or CS in the UK, only baton and cuffs,  when bases in Canada is the only exception. 

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Billy Blue Tac
5 hours ago, Father Jack said:

Red Cap on the left. To the right of his cuff pouch, would appear to be a PAVA size pouch with something in it.

Mobile phone, maybe?

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BlueBob
8 hours ago, Father Jack said:

Look at the "monkey", sorry Red Cap on the left.

 

You’re not really!   Otherwise you could have just deleted the comment before posting.  
A derisory and wholly unwarranted comment and one deserves a response that as the Dragons Den says “I’m out”

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Ether
2 hours ago, BlueBob said:

You’re not really!   Otherwise you could have just deleted the comment before posting.  
A derisory and wholly unwarranted comment and one deserves a response that as the Dragons Den says “I’m out”

RMP arrest more people a year than the MDP and that’s a fact.

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Father Jack
36 minutes ago, Ether said:

RMP arrest more people a year than the MDP and that’s a fact.

That wouldn't exactly be difficult to achieve. With MDP arrests rarely out of double figures in a year. 

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Wilts20

So in your opinions, it's just an expense thing, as MilPol etc can carry firearms as crown servants, private police (e.g. Port of Dover) can carry PAVA, so the other forces could, but choose not to?

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Ether
4 hours ago, Wilts20 said:

So in your opinions, it's just an expense thing, as MilPol etc can carry firearms as crown servants, private police (e.g. Port of Dover) can carry PAVA, so the other forces could, but choose not to?

Yeah that’s exactly it. The option was explored and cost and storage were the issues. 

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Billy Blue Tac
4 hours ago, Wilts20 said:

So in your opinions, it's just an expense thing, 

As well as costings, there's probably some risk-based analysis as well which would identify the type and level of threat military police officers are likely to encounter during their normal duties and the best(?) way to manage and mitigate those threats.

FWIW, my experience of MPs is that their mere presence was enough to put me back in my box. But that was years ago, nowadays do they have the same type of violent encounters that HO officers etc do?

 

(Cross post with @Ether + )

 

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Ether
14 hours ago, Billy Blue Tac said:

As well as costings, there's probably some risk-based analysis as well which would identify the type and level of threat military police officers are likely to encounter during their normal duties and the best(?) way to manage and mitigate those threats.

FWIW, my experience of MPs is that their mere presence was enough to put me back in my box. But that was years ago, nowadays do they have the same type of violent encounters that HO officers etc do?

 

(Cross post with @Ether + )

 

Military Police spend a huge amount of time off a unit and cover multiple counties, the myth it’s all done on a camp with safe individuals is just that a myth.

The engage with the public and stop at any incident that requires it, violence is less prevalent than with the home office forces but still significantly more than other forces that carry spray and taser like CNC, MDP. 
 

The MoD has always been backwards when it comes to policing, they don’t want to admit military personnel break the law

 

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2 hours ago, Ether said:

Military Police spend a huge amount of time off a unit and cover multiple counties, the myth it’s all done on a camp with safe individuals is just that a myth.

The engage with the public and stop at any incident that requires it, violence is less prevalent than with the home office forces but still significantly more than other forces that carry spray and taser like CNC, MDP. 
 

The MoD has always been backwards when it comes to policing, they don’t want to admit military personnel break the law

 

They must do more outside wire work than CNC! I see RN Regulators are now wearing body cameras.

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Radman

The reason why BTP didn't initially roll out CS/PAVA was due to the force not being covered in the original Section 5 firearm legislation, we were added in later on down the line as were CNC and MOD Plod. When the act was first passed only constables which fell under the Police Act had an exemption, this covered all HO forces but not the more specialist ones. 

Dover Port is however different in that it DOES issue its officers CAPTOR spray, now for years I assumed (wrongly) that this was down to them simply chancing their arm at being attested constables so they have a legal right to possess it (you could feasibly raise a good case at court if necessary in my opinion) but no, my understanding after reading a FOI act release on this very subject is that the force has written to the Home Secretary who has issued a specific licence to the Chief Officer of the Port Police giving them the ability to carry PAVA spray for port policing functions. 

I believe Bristol Port Police is in the same boat aswell (lolz 😅.) 

To my knowledge no Parks Police has ever written to the Home Secretary requesting bespoke authorisation to carry CAPTOR, I imagine it would be much harder for them to justify given port police are policing an actual port facility, an entry into the UK with all the national security implications surrounding that. 

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Wilts20
1 hour ago, Radman said:

The reason why BTP didn't initially roll out CS/PAVA was due to the force not being covered in the original Section 5 firearm legislation, we were added in later on down the line as were CNC and MOD Plod. When the act was first passed only constables which fell under the Police Act had an exemption, this covered all HO forces but not the more specialist ones. 

Dover Port is however different in that it DOES issue its officers CAPTOR spray, now for years I assumed (wrongly) that this was down to them simply chancing their arm at being attested constables so they have a legal right to possess it (you could feasibly raise a good case at court if necessary in my opinion) but no, my understanding after reading a FOI act release on this very subject is that the force has written to the Home Secretary who has issued a specific licence to the Chief Officer of the Port Police giving them the ability to carry PAVA spray for port policing functions. 

I believe Bristol Port Police is in the same boat aswell (lolz 😅.) 

To my knowledge no Parks Police has ever written to the Home Secretary requesting bespoke authorisation to carry CAPTOR, I imagine it would be much harder for them to justify given port police are policing an actual port facility, an entry into the UK with all the national security implications surrounding that. 

Great insight, thanks. 

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