Complaints against officers

[Fedster + 1,307]

The police and the traveller community are normally thought of together in terms of crime. It's for this reason an association of Gypsy Roma Traveller (GRT) officers exists to move the relationship between forces and the community in a new direction.

Pete Kotlar is a PC with Cheshire Police. He is also one of the co-directors of the Gypsy Roma Traveller Police Association (GRTPA), whose founding motive in 2014 was to challenge what he refers to as the  “negative, stereotypical, racist behaviour - if you like - from police officers and staff”

He adds: "Our main message has always been for officers to consider before you use the word traveller consider if you would refer to any other ethnicity in the same manner. Before you say something about travellers, for example, would you say the same thing about any other race or ethnicity?"

The GRTPA currently has more than 70 members from across the UK and receives no external funding. 

PC Kotlar, who is originally from Slovakia, said that discriminating against GRT people was the acceptable norm in society and therefore also within the police service.

"It seems to be acceptable, and the norm to be using various terms and language towards GRT. That's just the culture we live in unfortunately, not just in police forces but nationally."

Part of the problem he said was before the existence of GRTPA the negative behaviours or language towards GRT within the police were never challenged. He also believes such attitudes have a lot to do with lack of education and awareness and said he sometimes comes across people who are not aware GRT was even deemed a separate ethnicity.

Officers’ perception of the GRT community can be seen through the lens of high levels of crime at certain encampments and high profile confrontations between the police and members of these communities.

The darkest of these is undoubtedly the events of last August when Thames Valley PC Andrew Harper was killed by three men from a traveller site in Berkshire.

The National Police Chiefs’ Council (NPCC) lead for Gypsies, Roma and Travellers, Cheshire DCC Janette McCormick, said last month after the perpetrators were jailed that it was wrong to “demonise” an entire ethnicity and assume that the traveller community were “inherently criminal”. 

 

DCC Janette McCormick said it was wrong to 'demonise' a community

PC Kotlar and the GRTPA want to send the same message and challenge the stereotype of entrenched criminality.

The general engagement or knowledge of the police towards GRT is around encampments or unauthorised encampments. However, that involves a very small percentage of GRT ethnicity he says.

One of the GRTPA’s aims for this year was to engage forces in carrying out their own internal review of whether GRT was used as a risk factor in their National Decision Model (NDM) process.

“I don't feel any ethnicity should be used as a risk factor. So when we see GRT mentioned in incidents and that's one of the reasons why we deploy officers - that is wrong.”

The Association also does not agree with the concept of forces having a Gypsy Traveller Liaison Officer. PC Kotlar said if forces want to have encampment officers to deal with unauthorised encampments then they should be named as such

He said engagement should be done by all officers on the beat, mainly PCSOs.

"Unauthorised encampment is not a criminal offence but a civil matter between the landowner or the local authority. Unless there are reports of ASB or criminal offences being committed by individuals within the unauthorised encampment, I can’t see how regular “passing attention” checks in the area is a proportionate response."

Being GRT can be an invisible characteristic. PC Kotlar said he has never felt disadvantaged or discriminated against within the police force. Yet he can see the tension in the relationship between the police and the GRT members of the public.

"From my own experience or my family's experience, my parents especially back in Slovakia, mainly because of ethnicity, the police were overtly racist towards them. So when they came to the UK, there were the same perceptions and the same fear of being discriminated against. From speaking with the members of the traveller communities, a lot of them have negative experiences with the police, unfortunately. That's why they wouldn't be really keen to engage. However, that's changing and that is the reason the GRTPA is there. Our motto is breaking down barriers and building trust with the communities."

PC Kotlar wants the police to be a service that all groups feel they can turn to when they need to. 

"We have a lot of domestic violence within our community as well. And again, victims of domestic violence don't want to get in touch with the police because of lack of trust."

PC Pete Kotlar (below)

View On Police Oracle

[SimonT + 1,185]

That's going to be a hard sell. Both for police and most certainly the public. 

[Wikicop20 + 186]

Should go down like a lead balloon. Good luck.

Edited September 19, 2020 by Wilts20

[skydiver + 1,099]

I admire what Pete is trying to do but he has a massive uphill task.  Sadly a lot of Irish travelers in particular live up to the stereotype of what gypsies are and the image of  the good ones and there are plenty, gets overwhelmed by the bad news stories.  

[BlueBob + 690]

1 hour ago, skydiver said:

I admire what Pete is trying to do but he has a massive uphill task.  Sadly a lot of Irish travelers in particular live up to the stereotype of what gypsies are and the image of  the good ones and there are plenty, gets overwhelmed by the bad news stories.  

Absolutely agree about good luck and there being an uphill struggle.  

On reflection of some of the comments in the piece, there could well be a cycle to be broken, much like the other groups where there are community action groups, liaison this that or the  other to broker some sort of change.  
I remember years ago going onto caravan sites and drinking tea and cake with those residents, and yes sometimes you might then meet a resident being good or bad when you're out and about.    

[Zulu 22 + 4,569]

I have yet to have dealings with any Traveller site where they have any regard for the law or any residents. They regularly camp on community playing fields and play area's, generally leaving a mountain of filth and rubbish. Perhaps those in support should speak to the general public who are plagued by this behaviour. 

The problem is far greater in the shires as the travellers know that they can set up a camp before there is any Police reaction.

Is it not time that we stopped trying to be Social workers and just got on with enforcing the law, without fear or favour.

[skydiver + 1,099]

17 minutes ago, Zulu 22 said:

I have yet to have dealings with any Traveller site where they have any regard for the law or any residents. They regularly camp on community playing fields and play area's, generally leaving a mountain of filth and rubbish. Perhaps those in support should speak to the general public who are plagued by this behaviour. 

The problem is far greater in the shires as the travellers know that they can set up a camp before there is any Police reaction.

Is it not time that we stopped trying to be Social workers and just got on with enforcing the law, without fear or favour.

We used to have a group park up on a verge next to our village and after they left you would never have known that they had been there as they left the area as tidy as they found it.  In addition there was never any trouble from them when they were around.    We also have a group of English gypsies who regularly give us intel about the local Irish gypsies as they don't like being tarred with the same brush and hate the attention that some of the bad apples draw. TBH when I look at the intel on some of our local sites it is a minority of the families who are known to us with most just keeping their heads down and carrying on with quiet lives.

[Zulu 22 + 4,569]

That is not the experience in our area. Twice they have taken over a large park and left a huge mess. They moved onto  the Rugby club where they gave abuse when they were approached by Police and the Club President. The mess they left cost over £10,000 to rectify. They have taken over Farmers fields, works car parks and each time left a similar mess, nappies, excrement, building rubbish, you name it they left it.

If they were parked on a grass verge I would imagine that it was just for overnight and on the verge they could and should have been dealt with under various acts.

Edited September 21, 2020 by Zulu 22

[skydiver + 1,099]

You're right Zulu some travelers cause problems but many don't cause problems.  The ones in the example I gave parked for 1-2 weeks at a time without leaving a mess or breaking any laws.

I have however dealt with many others who have caused chaos but that isn't exclusively a traveler trait by any means.

[Chief Cheetah 6,902]

This is my experience also. Those that cause problems are in a very small minority but those who do cause the problems cause lots of them and they are usually big.

Same old story of a whole group being tarred with the same brush.

 

[SD + 683]

All for better understanding of different cultures. So, can you help explain why Gypsies, Roma and Travellers account for 5% of male prisoners and only 0.1% of the overall population? That would suggest they're 50 x more likely to commit crime.

[Chief Cheetah 6,902]

I think stats like that are always hard to reconcile.  Is there maybe a reason that more people of those communities are imprisoned than the non travelling community?  maybe because they don't have a specific address they can be paroled to so imprisonment is the only other option.

An area of 100,000 people could have a very high burglary rate and there are 100 people with previous convictions for that offence living in it but all it takes is that 1 burglar to push the crime stats up and taking out that one person from the 100 with convictions can make the crime rate drop more than 50%.

It's a much wider picture than just saying %'s of populations are imprisoned.

 

[SD + 683]

4 hours ago, Chief Cheetah said:

I think stats like that are always hard to reconcile.  Is there maybe a reason that more people of those communities are imprisoned than the non travelling community?  maybe because they don't have a specific address they can be paroled to so imprisonment is the only other option.

An area of 100,000 people could have a very high burglary rate and there are 100 people with previous convictions for that offence living in it but all it takes is that 1 burglar to push the crime stats up and taking out that one person from the 100 with convictions can make the crime rate drop more than 50%.

It's a much wider picture than just saying %'s of populations are imprisoned.

 

No offence but little of what you said makes sense. People on remand do not count towards the prison numbers. And the 50 x point isn't about individual offences but the population v prison percentage.

The fact of the matter is they're massively disproportionately represented in the prison population. The question I'm asking is why?

[Chief Cheetah 6,902]

44 minutes ago, SD said:

The question I'm asking is why?

A very good question indeed and one that a lot of people have pondered I don't doubt

[Zulu 22 + 4,569]

12 hours ago, SD said:

No offence but little of what you said makes sense. People on remand do not count towards the prison numbers. And the 50 x point isn't about individual offences but the population v prison percentage.

The fact of the matter is they're massively disproportionately represented in the prison population. The question I'm asking is why?

I am sure that others have experienced the same as myself with travellers. When a male is arrested the first thing that they try and do is toss their wallet to another member of the group. They then appear in custody with no money at all, other than loose change.

I have managed on several occasions to intercept the persons wallet before transit.  Example one, had £1,200 in his wallet. He appeared in custody at Court charged with Criminal Damage and assault on Police. He asked for a solicitor to represent him and he signed out £200 cash to pay his appointed solicitor. He entered a "Guilty" plea and was fined with the usual court costs. He asked for time to pay and this was refused. He paid out of the money he held in his property and was left with a sum amount of £20.  He left Court and the whole Traveller camp left the area within 20 minutes.  Had he been penniless then, he could well have been sent down. Not necessarily but this could be a reason for more prison terms. If they receive a fine, they do not pay and, you never see them again.