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Hundreds of police not fit enough for the job after failing basic fitness test

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Reasonable Man
5 hours ago, Mags-1979 said:

Hi @Reasonable Man

Could you tell me where I can find the stats relating to the bleep test being set for a 50-54 year old woman, please.  I'm interested in sports fitness and would like to do a bit of research in to how these things are calculated.

Many thanks.

Maggie.

You can find conversion tables for bleep test scores to VO2 Max estimates on line. Then compare those to VO2 Max to fitness rates for ages and genders and there it is. 

I recall it being discussed at the time when the bleep test became the interim fitness test that it was set at this level as it meant that everyone joining the police could pass it if they were of average fitness. To have set it higher would have meant, for example, that a woman aged 52 would have to have excellent fitness levels while a 22 year old man would reach the same level with an average, or even a poor fitness level. Saved discrimination claims. 

Of course if Winsor was fully implemented officers would be doing something akin to the PSNI test be now. 

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Reasonable Man
5 hours ago, SD said:

Yeah, that’s the attitude that resulted in Ncalt.

I love NCALT. A great tool when used properly. 

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Zulu 22

I thought the topic was about the Fitness of officers through the fitness test. If officers cannot be bothered to keep up with a, let's face it, a basic level of fitness then the job deserves better than them.  The same would go for officers regarding procedures and legislation. If they could not be bothered to keep up to date with legislation then, do they have enough int4erest in doing the job to the best of their abilities. Especially if they cannot be bothered to improve their knowledge. If they cannot be bothered with updating by which ever method,  National Centre or any other method then there ethos could be in question.

We always got updates on new legislation or procedures but officers have to make an effort to improve their knowledge.

 

 

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E section

In the PSNI everyone , except response gets time to train in work. 

So the people who arguably need to be the fittest, given they have no idea what they will face on a daily basis don't get to train, whilst you will be knocked over by assorted "office workers" on their way to and from the gym. 

Specialist units of course get organised training even though they will be mob handed and aware of what they are being sent to take on. 

Reaponse ahoukd be paid for 3 hours per week to train. 

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MajorDisaster
3 hours ago, E section said:

eIn the PSNI everyone , except response gets time to train in work. 

So the people who arguably need to be the fittest, given they have no idea what they will face on a daily basis don't get to train, whilst you will be knocked over by assorted "office workers" on their way to and from the gym. 

Specialist units of course get organised training even though they will be mob handed and aware of what they are being sent to take on. 

Reaponse ahoukd be paid for 3 hours per week to train. 

A few years ago [yet another] attempt was made by soldiers to claim for gym membership as their job required the to be fit.  It was pointed out that the [then] fitness test consisted of sit ups, press ups and a run.  None of which required access to gym equipment to train for.  All you need is a straight 15metre flat piece of ground.  I have a path in my garden that is the right length and there is a layby on a lane near me that I also use for the odd time check.  I hve enough time constraints on me without some inspector or other telling me 'you haven't logged your three hours in the gym this week'.

Edited by MajorDisaster
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Growley
11 hours ago, E section said:

In the PSNI everyone , except response gets time to train in work. 

So the people who arguably need to be the fittest, given they have no idea what they will face on a daily basis don't get to train, whilst you will be knocked over by assorted "office workers" on their way to and from the gym. 

I disagree that response team officers need to be the fittest out of all policing roles, but there's no way office workers should be getting paid to train.

11 hours ago, E section said:

Specialist units of course get organised training even though they will be mob handed and aware of what they are being sent to take on. 

I'd like to know which specialist units you're referring to before I write your post off completely.

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Zulu 22

Well for ours it is the Tactical Aid Unit who have training built into their schedule of duties. They have a large amount of training time between calls. I should imagine that it is the same for the Met.

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E section
5 hours ago, Growley said:

I disagree that response team officers need to be the fittest out of all policing roles, but there's no way office workers should be getting paid to train.

I'd like to know which specialist units you're referring to before I write your post off completely.

Response go into a situation with often little idea what they are dealing with. You walk into a domestic with a 20 year old waif of a probationer to find a 6'3" Polish ex soldier intent on ripping your head off. You really think you don't need to be fit to handle that?

Then along comes TSG or ARV ,there will be at least 3-5 of them, all experienced and all in the gym every day(whilst on duty).

Now, how is it fair or sensible that they get paid to train whilst response doesn't?

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Growley
3 hours ago, E section said:

Response go into a situation with often little idea what they are dealing with. You walk into a domestic with a 20 year old waif of a probationer to find a 6'3" Polish ex soldier intent on ripping your head off. You really think you don't need to be fit to handle that?

Who said they don't need to be fit? I certainly didn't. 

3 hours ago, E section said:

Then along comes TSG or ARV ,there will be at least 3-5 of them, all experienced and all in the gym every day(whilst on duty).

Now, how is it fair or sensible that they get paid to train whilst response doesn't?

I'm assuming from this you've never worked on either of these OCUs? 

TSG is the role where you need to be fitter than arguably any other role in policing (despite the fact the bleep test doesn't reflect this). Policing public disorder is a physically arduous task (any Level 2 officer will be able to tell you that) but the way TSG are used regularly involves running significant distances in kit, or working with a severe numbers disadvantage in spontaneous disorder.

Similarly, ARV need to be fitter because firearms operations can often be protracted exercises requiring coordinated movement, concentration, and potentially accuracy whilst using heavy kit.

Both OCUs require enhanced fitness to perform in their core specialist roles, significantly above what is required at the basic level of response policing. I'd also point out that your earlier comment of "even though they will be mob handed and aware of what they are being sent to take on." is generally untrue outside of pre-planned operations.

I don't disagree that all police officers should maintain a decent level of fitness (I've indicated as much higher up in the thread), and where demand allowed, I wouldn't be against managing cars on response team going in for an hour to train, I just take issue with your assertions that response officers need to be fitter than other roles, because it's simply not true.

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E section
22 minutes ago, Growley said:

Who said they don't need to be fit? I certainly didn't. 

I'm assuming from this you've never worked on either of these OCUs? 

TSG is the role where you need to be fitter than arguably any other role in policing (despite the fact the bleep test doesn't reflect this). Policing public disorder is a physically arduous task (any Level 2 officer will be able to tell you that) but the way TSG are used regularly involves running significant distances in kit, or working with a severe numbers disadvantage in spontaneous disorder.

Similarly, ARV need to be fitter because firearms operations can often be protracted exercises requiring coordinated movement, concentration, and potentially accuracy whilst using heavy kit.

Both OCUs require enhanced fitness to perform in their core specialist roles, significantly above what is required at the basic level of response policing. I'd also point out that your earlier comment of "even though they will be mob handed and aware of what they are being sent to take on." is generally untrue outside of pre-planned operations.

I don't disagree that all police officers should maintain a decent level of fitness (I've indicated as much higher up in the thread), and where demand allowed, I wouldn't be against managing cars on response team going in for an hour to train, I just take issue with your assertions that response officers need to be fitter than other roles, because it's simply not true.

So, just to clarify would you rather be going in blind with the 20 year old 8 stone probationer to deal with the 6'3" Polish ex soldier or would  You rather go in, knowing what you were facing , with your 4 ARV colleagues?

 

In NI , the majority of response are also trained in public  order and don their riot gear and stand in the line with our TSG colleagues. 

The problem being they are paid to train and we are not. 

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Growley
42 minutes ago, E section said:

So, just to clarify would you rather be going in blind with the 20 year old 8 stone probationer to deal with the 6'3" Polish ex soldier or would  You rather go in, knowing what you were facing , with your 4 ARV colleagues?

Stop with the red herring argument.

You've created a number of variables that have nothing to do with fitness; numbers, knowledge of what you're facing (which either both would have or neither), quality and number of colleagues, tactical options. 

42 minutes ago, E section said:

In NI , the majority of response are also trained in public  order and don their riot gear and stand in the line with our TSG colleagues. 

The problem being they are paid to train and we are not. 

Same thing happens in London, however whilst you may work alongside them in public order, you won't be required to fill out their specialist functions. 

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E section
39 minutes ago, Growley said:

Stop with the red herring argument.

You've created a number of variables that have nothing to do with fitness; numbers, knowledge of what you're facing (which either both would have or neither), quality and number of colleagues, tactical options. 

Same thing happens in London, however whilst you may work alongside them in public order, you won't be required to fill out their specialist functions. 

I'll Agree to disagree. 

 

 

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