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Whitehall Hack

Ambulance Paramedic Legality?

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Whitehall Hack

I was reading a story about a private ambulance getting a speeding ticket. Also mentioned was another case involving a transplant vehicle being fined. 

Now I looked at the law which states 'ambulance purposes'. Now apparently the legal definition of that is "A vehicle designed to carry sick and injured people to (and from) hospital."

I was told that this is the reason donor vehicles are not exempt, not the fact they are 'private'. 

So does that mean paramedic vehicles are illegal because they aren't designed to carry etc..? 

Apparently the law hasn't been updated in 50+ years, but the law is the law as they say.. 

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BlueBob
2 hours ago, Whitehall Hack said:

I was reading a story about a private ambulance getting a speeding ticket. Also mentioned was another case involving a transplant vehicle being fined. 

Now I looked at the law which states 'ambulance purposes'. Now apparently the legal definition of that is "A vehicle designed to carry sick and injured people to (and from) hospital."

I was told that this is the reason donor vehicles are not exempt, not the fact they are 'private'. 

So does that mean paramedic vehicles are illegal because they aren't designed to carry etc..? 

Apparently the law hasn't been updated in 50+ years, but the law is the law as they say.. 

If you do a quick search, this topic and the cases you refer have been discussed at length.  Even the bland title of paramedic leaves lots of options to say yes and no.  Did you want to be more specific or offer a scenario?

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PoliceDoge
Posted (edited)
9 hours ago, Whitehall Hack said:

I was reading a story about a private ambulance getting a speeding ticket. Also mentioned was another case involving a transplant vehicle being fined. 

Now I looked at the law which states 'ambulance purposes'. Now apparently the legal definition of that is "A vehicle designed to carry sick and injured people to (and from) hospital."

I was told that this is the reason donor vehicles are not exempt, not the fact they are 'private'. 

So does that mean paramedic vehicles are illegal because they aren't designed to carry etc..? 

Apparently the law hasn't been updated in 50+ years, but the law is the law as they say.. 

The Deregulation Act 2015 includes an amendment which covers vehicles used for the purposes of responding to an emergency at the request of an NHS ambulance service. Prior to this they were technically illegal.

Private providers can continue to fit blue lights to ambulances and vehicles used for ambulance purposes (i.e. vehicles which have a stretcher fitted).

They cannot have blues fitted to a RRV or similar unless that vehicle is used for responding to an emergency at the request of an NHS ambulance service.

 

Edited to add: "a vehicle primarily used for the purpose of conveying any human tissue for transplanting or similar purposes" is classed as an emergency vehicle under the Road Vehicle Lighting Regulations 1989.

Edited by PoliceDoge

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ParochialYokal

Interesting that this topic was posted today, as I thinking about the issue earlier.

I saw an ambulance driving on B&Ts this morning that belonged to the Royal Hospital for Neurodisability- which is a ‘private’ hospital; albeit, one that is also a charity.

This didn’t look like a passenger transport vehicle- it was an actual ambulance.

I knew that to claim dispensation for ‘ambulance purposes’ that the vehicle needed to be dispatched by an Ambulance Trust. But it made me wonder what if they have to transfer a patient in emergency circumstances?

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PoliceDoge
Posted (edited)
46 minutes ago, ParochialYokal said:

Interesting that this topic was posted today, as I thinking about the issue earlier.

I saw an ambulance driving on B&Ts this morning that belonged to the Royal Hospital for Neurodisability- which is a ‘private’ hospital; albeit, one that is also a charity.

This didn’t look like a passenger transport vehicle- it was an actual ambulance.

I knew that to claim dispensation for ‘ambulance purposes’ that the vehicle needed to be dispatched by an Ambulance Trust. But it made me wonder what if they have to transfer a patient in emergency circumstances?

Actual ambulances don't have to be dispatched by an ambulance trust as they fall under the Regulation 3 definition of emergency vehicle: "(b) an ambulance, being a vehicle (other than an invalid carriage) which is constructed or adapted for the purposes of conveying sick, injured or disabled persons and which is used for such purposes)."

It's only vehicles that don't have a stretcher (therefore not meeting the above definition) that need to rely on the "(aza) a vehicle used for ambulance purposes or for the purpose of providing a response to an emergency at the request of an NHS ambulance service" exemption. 

Edited by PoliceDoge

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ParochialYokal
Actual ambulances don't have to be dispatched by an ambulance trust as they fall under the Regulation 3 definition of emergency vehicle: "(b) an ambulance, being a vehicle (other than an invalid carriage) which is constructed or adapted for the purposes of conveying sick, injured or disabled persons and which is used for such purposes)."
It's only vehicles that don't have a stretcher (therefore not meeting the above definition) that need to rely on the "(aza) a vehicle used for ambulance purposes or for the purpose of providing a response to an emergency at the request of an NHS ambulance service" exemption. 


So, if a vehicle constructed as an ambulance (and has a stretcher inside) encounters a situation where the driver thinks it is necessary to use B&Ts to expedite their journey to a hospital then they can?

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PoliceDoge
4 minutes ago, ParochialYokal said:

So, if a vehicle constructed as an ambulance (and has a stretcher inside) encounters a situation where the driver thinks it is necessary to use B&Ts to expedite their journey to a hospital then they can?

 

Yes, in accordance with Regulation 27 of the Road Vehicles Lighting Regulations 1989:

No person shall use, or cause or permit to be used, on a road any vehicle on which any ... warning beacon emitting blue light [is] used so as to be lit except:

(i) at the scene of an emergency; or

(ii) when it is necessary or desirable either to indicate to persons using the road the urgency of the purpose for which the vehicle is being used, or to warn persons of the presence of the vehicle or a hazard on the road.

And regulation 99 of the Road Vehicles (Construction of Use) Regulations 1986 has a similar exemption with regards to the sounding of a audible warning instrument.

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BlueBob

As I recall in the recent case (Local members in N. London) about ambulances, the Court basically said that if it looks like an Ambo, is used like an ambo then it most probably is. 

6 hours ago, ParochialYokal said:

So, if a vehicle constructed as an ambulance (and has a stretcher inside) encounters a situation where the driver thinks it is necessary to use B&Ts to expedite their journey to a hospital then they can?

 

Just looking at this scenario, the twisted minds (I/We) on a forum, I am assuming this is  not a chap wjo has one as a bit of fun  and is driving around to encounter this emergency! 

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ParochialYokal
As I recall in the recent case (Local members in N. London) about ambulances, the Court basically said that if it looks like an Ambo, is used like an ambo then it most probably is. 
Just looking at this scenario, the twisted minds (I/We) on a forum, I am assuming this is  not a chap wjo has one as a bit of fun  and is driving around to encounter this emergency! 


I wasn’t thinking about a Walt-scenario, but a few others spring to mind.

- A driver of a patient ambulance service vehicle (a private company commissioned to drive patients to a hospital) had a situation where a passenger becomes unwell. They then make the judgement call within the confines of the limited scope of their expertise that it is necessary to blue light to hospital, then they can. Many PTS ‘ambulances’ have B&Ts- I assume for that reason.

- A driver of a British Airways ambulance meets a plan on the runway at Heathrow that is in a bad way. They then make the judgement call to convey on B&Ts themselves from the runway.

- A voluntary ambulance service (like Hatzola) gets called out to a local community member. Yada, yada... they blue light it to a hospital.

In all of the scenarios above, none of them have been dispatched by an ambulance service.

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PoliceDoge
50 minutes ago, ParochialYokal said:

In all of the scenarios above, none of them have been dispatched by an ambulance service.

 

With the possible exception of the PTS ambulance (not sure whether that counts as an ambulance) none of them need to be dispatched by the ambulance service. That is only a requirement for non-ambulance vehicles.

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BlueBob
2 hours ago, ParochialYokal said:

 

 


I wasn’t thinking about a Walt-scenario, but a few others spring to mind.

- A driver of a patient ambulance service vehicle (a private company commissioned to drive patients to a hospital) had a situation where a passenger becomes unwell. They then make the judgement call within the confines of the limited scope of their expertise that it is necessary to blue light to hospital, then they can. Many PTS ‘ambulances’ have B&Ts- I assume for that reason.

- A driver of a British Airways ambulance meets a plan on the runway at Heathrow that is in a bad way. They then make the judgement call to convey on B&Ts themselves from the runway.

- A voluntary ambulance service (like Hatzola) gets called out to a local community member. Yada, yada... they blue light it to a hospital.

In all of the scenarios above, none of them have been dispatched by an ambulance service.

 

I'm fairly sure they were mentioned in one of the Court cases that they were NOT an ambulance - again we refer to ambulance sometimes in a bland way whilst some think of a vehicle that can take a stretcher, a vehicle with a NHS paramedic and all sors of other permutations.  What is clear, is there could do with some greater clarity, even update on the regs, as to what is and isn't included.  In some ways the bits in S19 Road Safety Act about being trained so as to get exemption from speed limits was meant to deal with some of these issues.  Alas its yet to be enacted. 

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PoliceDoge
6 minutes ago, BlueBob said:

I'm fairly sure they were mentioned in one of the Court cases that they were NOT an ambulance - again we refer to ambulance sometimes in a bland way whilst some think of a vehicle that can take a stretcher, a vehicle with a NHS paramedic and all sors of other permutations.  

The case you refer to is DPP v Issler [2014] 1 W.L.R. 3686, and it was held that their vehicle was not being used for ambulance purposes because it was not being used for conveying sick, injured or disabled persons.

Quote

The critical factual attribute of the instant case was that Hatzola Manchester only exceptionally conveyed any injured persons to hospital. The vehicles in question were not constructed (or, to the extent relevant, adapted) for that purpose, but were equipped to convey medically qualified, fast response personnel to the accident scene, and no more.

Had they been using an actual ambulance, it wouldn't have been an issue.

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themaadone1546620582

A PTS ambulance, when manned by the non emergency qualified ambulance care assistants, should always request a frontline emergency ambulance to a patient who has become critically unwell. The vast majority of PTS ambulance staff will have only completed the D1 IHCD driving course which is a short course in roadcraft minus the emergency driving element.

Frontline crews follow the complete roadcraft training programme and then some (usually a 6week full time driving course). 

PTS vehicles have blues fitted primarily to assist front line services for major incidents and it's rare to find a PTS crew member to have the capability to safely drive on B&T.

 

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jordab.c

to keep it simple , this is an industry i work in and know the laws pretty well 

 

Ambulanc RRV under the deruglation act is illegal unless they are owned or leased by an nhs trust 

 

any ambulance with a stretcher are permetitted to use blue light /sirens and can self task and do not need to be dispatched by an ambulance service 

the law only advises that drivers have apropriate training / and i would suppose the veichles should be insured for such use 

 

 

 

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BlueBob
9 hours ago, jordab.c said:

to keep it simple , this is an industry i work in and know the laws pretty well 

Ambulanc RRV under the deruglation act is illegal unless they are owned or leased by an nhs trust 

any ambulance with a stretcher are permetitted to use blue light /sirens and can self task and do not need to be dispatched by an ambulance service 

the law only advises that drivers have apropriate training / and i would suppose the veichles should be insured for such use 

It was going so well and authorative about the law etc until would suppose the veichles should be insured for such use 

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