Complaints against officers

[Fedster + 1,307]

HEAD

We want our pre-1969 force back, say campaigners

Calls to remove borough from county force as austerity takes toll on policing budget.

Councillor Martin Terry

 

Politicians are preparing a case to send to the Home Office to ask for their borough to be withdrawn from its force area.

A group of independent councillors in Southend-on-Sea has called for the area to have its own force carved out of Essex – reverting to pre-1969 arrangements.

Spokesman Martin Terry, who unsuccessfully stood for the Essex police and crime commissioner role in 2016, said his area doesn’t get the resources it requires.

“We’re saying to the PCC that unless we see a dramatic increase in the level of policing in Southend, we will apply to the Home Office,” he said.

“Southend has by far the highest crime rate but doesn’t get its fair share. When the PCC put the precept up this year he got 150 officers back from the 800 we lost but distributed them right across the piece - based on crime stats we should have got them all.”

He added: “If we re-establish a single borough police force we will be able to establish much more local control of the precept and deliver the policing we need.”

Mr Terry, who rubbished Theresa May’s contention that there is no link between officer numbers and crime, said the group would not favour having a local PCC. He added that the large police station in Southend-on-Sea could be a force HQ, while specialist resources could be shared across the county.

The non-party political group is the unitary authority’s opposition, having previously led it in coalition from 2014-16.

Several major local businesses have spoken to the Southend Echo newspaper in support of the idea.

But their chances appear remote, as a spokesman for the Home Office said any application for a change of force boundary needs the support of the area’s PCC.

He added: “An application for a police force boundary change would need to be locally led and supported by the police and crime commissioner.

“Such an application would need to be accompanied by a robust business case demonstrating how the change would be in the interests of economy, efficiency and effectiveness.”

Deputy police, fire and crime commissioner for Essex, Jane Gardner, said: “Working with the police we identified the rise in crime at an early stage and have been lobbying the government on behalf of policing nationally and specifically for the people of Essex.”

She said 15 of the new officers will be specifically for Southend and PFCC Roger Hirst has been in recent contact with Southend Council about policing and crime.

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[Radman + 2,163]

HEAD

We want our pre-1969 force back, say campaigners

Calls to remove borough from county force as austerity takes toll on policing budget.

Councillor Martin Terry

 

Politicians are preparing a case to send to the Home Office to ask for their borough to be withdrawn from its force area.

A group of independent councillors in Southend-on-Sea has called for the area to have its own force carved out of Essex – reverting to pre-1969 arrangements.

Spokesman Martin Terry, who unsuccessfully stood for the Essex police and crime commissioner role in 2016, said his area doesn’t get the resources it requires.

“We’re saying to the PCC that unless we see a dramatic increase in the level of policing in Southend, we will apply to the Home Office,” he said.

“Southend has by far the highest crime rate but doesn’t get its fair share. When the PCC put the precept up this year he got 150 officers back from the 800 we lost but distributed them right across the piece - based on crime stats we should have got them all.”

He added: “If we re-establish a single borough police force we will be able to establish much more local control of the precept and deliver the policing we need.”

Mr Terry, who rubbished Theresa May’s contention that there is no link between officer numbers and crime, said the group would not favour having a local PCC. He added that the large police station in Southend-on-Sea could be a force HQ, while specialist resources could be shared across the county.

The non-party political group is the unitary authority’s opposition, having previously led it in coalition from 2014-16.

Several major local businesses have spoken to the Southend Echo newspaper in support of the idea.

But their chances appear remote, as a spokesman for the Home Office said any application for a change of force boundary needs the support of the area’s PCC.

He added: “An application for a police force boundary change would need to be locally led and supported by the police and crime commissioner.

“Such an application would need to be accompanied by a robust business case demonstrating how the change would be in the interests of economy, efficiency and effectiveness.”

Deputy police, fire and crime commissioner for Essex, Jane Gardner, said: “Working with the police we identified the rise in crime at an early stage and have been lobbying the government on behalf of policing nationally and specifically for the people of Essex.”

She said 15 of the new officers will be specifically for Southend and PFCC Roger Hirst has been in recent contact with Southend Council about policing and crime.

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I don't agree with disbanding the HO county model, especially in relation to tackling national crime etc but it is fairly obvious for everyone to see that certain communities are simply not seeing a service and the HO model of bobbying is failing communities in tackling issues which matter to them... Having sat in on many a meeting now there is a clear disconnect between what the HO is actually tackling as a priority to what the local authorities require tackling  

We need to seriously consider a two tiered system as seen in most other developed nations where the Local authorities/council has control over certain elements of policing such as byelaw and asb enforcement... The thing is this arguably wouldn't take a change in legislation as the powers already exist (if somewhat up for interpretation.)

 

Overall I feel there is a case to be made for councils to appoint their own cops to take care of these issues with a joined up, close working relationship with the Local HO forces and other partners (such as BTP, Highways, NHS etc.)

 

It would relieve pressure on county forces to crack on with national priorities and crime investigation but also allow for actual real enforcement of the low level issues and persistent behaviours that annoy and upset local communities.

 

It's a win win for everyone.

 

 

[ParochialYokal 1,119]

The problem is that councils haven’t got any money and they don’t have an obligation to enforce the majority of the criminal law.

 

If there was some kind of funding mechanism that allowed councils to levy a charge a separate then I wouldn’t have so much of an issue. However, what could emerge is having populist local mayors getting elected who divert other funds (like social care or public health) to fund their private policing agenda and then the NHS feels the brunt of the consequences.

 

I am not sure how they feel that they could run a local constabulary on the current funding formula just for Southend when all the economies of scale are lost?

[HazRat 762]

33 minutes ago, ParochialYokal said:

I am not sure how they feel that they could run a local constabulary on the current funding formula just for Southend when all the economies of scale are lost?

I’m guessing that they haven’t put much thought into it.

If somewhere like the Isle of Wight can’t afford to fund its own police I can’t see how Southend could either.

[SimonT + 1,185]

The logistics of the idea are just silly. I can certainly understand they want police, everyone does and should. 

We have a small town next to a big one. The big one is poorer, has significantly more crime etc. The small town very rarely gets a single response car unless there is a job, which there rarely is. 

I don't know if anyone has suggested that we employ more police. I think it could work. 

[ParochialYokal 1,119]

25 minutes ago, HazRat said:

I’m guessing that they haven’t put much thought into it.

If somewhere like the Isle of Wight can’t afford to fund its own police I can’t see how Southend could either.

Good example.

They also have special arrangements for the NHS, where dispensation was given to allow one Trust to provide ambulance, hospital, community and mental health services as it was not viable to provide them separately.

In today's climate of austerity there isn't much scope for services to be provided by local organisations. The direction is chunking up, rather that splitting out services to a borough level. 

[Zulu 22 + 4,571]

Returning to 1969 is not even worthy of being on any agenda but, I can understand their frustration because no area gets the Policing that it should. The public want to see officers, speak to officers and have their fears addressed. Returning, at a minimum to 2008 and the staffing levels which existed before May was forced to bring in austerity measures. Unfortunately she concentrated on destroying British Policing.

Stations closed,  officers no longer patrolling the streets, fire brigade Policing, with very little, if any, pro active Policing in operation.

The public deserve better, the Country deserves better, and Policing deserves better.

[Radman + 2,163]

2 hours ago, ParochialYokal said:

The problem is that councils haven’t got any money and they don’t have an obligation to enforce the majority of the criminal law. 

If there was some kind of funding mechanism that allowed councils to levy a charge a separate then I wouldn’t have so much of an issue. However, what could emerge is having populist local mayors getting elected who divert other funds (like social care or public health) to fund their private policing agenda and then the NHS feels the brunt of the consequences.

 

I am not sure how they feel that they could run a local constabulary on the current funding formula just for Southend when all the economies of scale are lost?

 

Yet a council will waste hundreds of thousands a year on ineffective wardens and enforcement officer types etc. 

Again we already have models in place where body of constables exist on fairly small budgets (London Parks Police for example operates on a very modest budget.)

Plus these models work the world over and are proven, it is really only the UK where we decide to once again be different and instead of providing a reliable service we opt simply not to bother enforcing issues which blight communities... This is the sad reality of modern day policing.

I also don't like this concept that often comes up when looking into the idea of municipal Constabularies "Oh it'll create little kingdoms" or "The Mayor/council will have their own agenda."

GOOD! It's about time local people and the folk who represent them had a say on how their Borough/Town was policed... The PCCs at best represent the needs of an entire county rather than individual areas. Just how can anyone expect a decent policing service when a PCC is responsible for a city and several major towns all under their control?

They can't to be frank.

Would I want to see the clock reversed to actual borough Constabularies? No, that would be a nightmare for cross border policing, specialisation etc BUT I would certainly support a second tier of policing that could atleast tackle some of the issues that blight people's lives within a local community, issues that HO Police either aren't interested in or simply cannot prioritise.

Edited October 13, 2018 by Radman

[ParochialYokal 1,119]

3 hours ago, Radman said:

I also don't like this concept that often comes up when looking into the idea of municipal Constabularies "Oh it'll create little kingdoms" or "The Mayor/council will have their own agenda."

GOOD! It's about time local people and the folk who represent them had a say on how their Borough/Town was policed... The PCCs at best represent the needs of an entire county rather than individual areas. Just how can anyone expect a decent policing service when a PCC is responsible for a city and several major towns all under their control?

Playing devil's advocate, what would happen if local municipal officers were instructed by a mayor to display zero tolerance, whereby they detained / arrested everyone that they came across and that ended up with the real police being taken off the streets to deal with it all?

Constables police by concept according to public interest. Local law enforcement under the direction and control of a mayor or local authority are not independent.

[Radman + 2,163]

Playing devil's advocate, what would happen if local municipal officers were instructed by a mayor to display zero tolerance, whereby they detained / arrested everyone that they came across and that ended up with the real police being taken off the streets to deal with it all?
Constables police by concept according to public interest. Local law enforcement under the direction and control of a mayor or local authority are not independent.

I don't think legally they could as their arrests would have to pass the necessity test for the first place and ultimately a HO custody sergeant could always turn their prisoners away.

They would still need to operate inside of the law.

It'd be like BTP Chief demanding rail cops arrest for every staff assault (which was never a force policy once upon a time... honest) yet this simply wasn't legal even back 10 years ago.

Cops utilise their own power of arrest and are responsible to utilise that power for themselves, as a Bobby you're conscious of this because when something does go wrong YOU are accountable, no one else.

[PommyJohno * 1]

On 13/10/2018 at 23:20, Radman said:

Cops utilise their own power of arrest and are responsible to utilise that power for themselves, as a Bobby you're conscious of this because when something does go wrong YOU are accountable, no one else.

Exactly. You're the one who'll have to answer to the senior officers, enquiry, Mags, whoever else. You have to justify it, and trust me when I say nobody will make your life in the dock/disciplinary hearing/presentation to Custody Sgt any easier after you've unlawfully arrested someone, even if it was on instruction from a seemingly trustworthy source.

[ParochialYokal 1,119]

I don't think legally they could as their arrests would have to pass the necessity test for the first place and ultimately a HO custody sergeant could always turn their prisoners away.

They would still need to operate inside of the law.

The necessity test is whether the arrest is necessary but it doesn’t relate to whether the issue was proportionate enough to pursue in the first place.

For example, municipal officers could be directed to enforce begging laws in a no tolerance way, yet many of the individuals concerned may not have an address, so an arrest is necessary.

[ParochialYokal 1,119]

Having seen that the Police and Crime Act 2017 allows a Chief Officer to designate a member of Police Staff or a Police Volunteer with any power of a constable other than arrest (and a couple more obscure powers), as well as arm them with CS / PAVA, I think that it is only a matter of time until this power is opened up to others.

 

If this was given to councils (including the PCSO detention powers), what we would have is ‘municipal police’ that have similar powers to Europe and South Africa (other than road traffic enforcement). That is, Officers whose job it is to enforce local ordinance (like byelaws and certain local authority issued licenses), whom can also ‘arrest’ people with the view of handing them over to the police.

 

Within reason, I have no problem with this so long as any designation is given by the Chief Officer of the local force, whom can also remove it. Also, regulations should be in force regarding recruitment, selection training and discipline.

 

These people don’t need to be called ‘police’ nor hold the office constable but I see no reason why they couldn’t be described as ‘peace officers’. This is a term that originates in English common law (and could have included night watchmen, Bailiffs and Constables).

 

 

 

[Radman + 2,163]

1 hour ago, ParochialYokal said:

 

 

The necessity test is whether the arrest is necessary but it doesn’t relate to whether the issue was proportionate enough to pursue in the first place.

For example, municipal officers could be directed to enforce begging laws in a no tolerance way, yet many of the individuals concerned may not have an address, so an arrest is necessary.

 

 

Now this could well be an issue but in sure custody sergeants would be savvy enough to come up with suitable care of addresses which to be fair I often tend to do when dealing with very low level stuff with beggars.

It isn't worth your time taking a beggar or byelaw breach etc into custody. Although that being said I've known the local force near to me to make arrests under the vagrancy act as part of "days of action" with operational plans in place.

Ultimately the safe guard will be the fact that it's a HO custody suite the officers would have to use.

[Radman + 2,163]

1 hour ago, ParochialYokal said:

Having seen that the Police and Crime Act 2017 allows a Chief Officer to designate a member of Police Staff or a Police Volunteer with any power of a constable other than arrest (and a couple more obscure powers), as well as arm them with CS / PAVA, I think that it is only a matter of time until this power is opened up to others.

 

If this was given to councils (including the PCSO detention powers), what we would have is ‘municipal police’ that have similar powers to Europe and South Africa (other than road traffic enforcement). That is, Officers whose job it is to enforce local ordinance (like byelaws and certain local authority issued licenses), whom can also ‘arrest’ people with the view of handing them over to the police.

 

Within reason, I have no problem with this so long as any designation is given by the Chief Officer of the local force, whom can also remove it. Also, regulations should be in force regarding recruitment, selection training and discipline.

 

These people don’t need to be called ‘police’ nor hold the office constable but I see no reason why they couldn’t be described as ‘peace officers’. This is a term that originates in English common law (and could have included night watchmen, Bailiffs and Constables).

 

 

 

It's just the way the law is written now that is the issue.

I also don't think the public would swallow the whole idea of unwarranted people being given various constable related powers in law... With this you have a two tiered system effectively possible and in some cases being carried out already.

I think we can all say something needs to change because the current methods we seem to use aren't competent at tackling the problems blghting communities.