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Fedster

Donald Trump blames Sadiq Khan and Immigrants for increase in crime in the UK, is he right?

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Fedster

Donald Trump visit: Sadiq Khan refuses to 'rise to beastly comments'

The mayor of London says he will not rise to Donald Trump's "beastly" accusation that he did "a terrible job" after 2017's terror attacks.

The US president used an interview ahead of his UK visit to attack Sadiq Khan over the wave of terror attacks in the capital.

He also blamed the mayor for a rise in immigration, saying "look at all the crime brought in".

Mr Khan questioned why he was singled out as being responsible for terrorism.

The mayor was speaking as Labour MP David Lammy accused Mr Trump of being a "racist" who "hates that London chose a Muslim mayor".

View Full Story

I agree with David Lammy, Trump hates the fact that there is a London mayor who is Muslim, Trump is at best a closet racist. However being the President his views carry alot of weight, thus thought i would start this debate, are immigrants responsible for bringing " large scale crime" to the UK? Should Sadiq Khan shoulder total responsibility for the crime in London?

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Zulu 22

The title is "Donald Trump blames Sadiq Khan and Immigrants for increase in crime in the UK, is he right?"  The none Political answer is "YES"

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Beaker
The title is "Donald Trump blames Sadiq Khan and Immigrants for increase in crime in the UK, is he right?"  The none Political answer is "YES"
After all, there are no UK born criminals are there?

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Radman
Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Beaker said:
3 hours ago, Zulu 22 said:
The title is "Donald Trump blames Sadiq Khan and Immigrants for increase in crime in the UK, is he right?"  The none Political answer is "YES"

After all, there are no UK born criminals are there?

It's the ones we can help that enter the UK bringing organised crime with them or have long history of frankly depraved offending. Home grown criminals are our problem but we should be conducting checks on nationals wishing to move to Britain.

I've encountered these folk in my role and no doubt many other officers here have aswell, the most serious offender I dealt with made a victim of a 14 year old lad and when his EU Criminal record check came back convictions for similar offending in his home nation- he had no duty to disclose it either and simply entered the country to start again without a job, skills or education.

He was a danger to the public the moment he entered the UK yet we conveniently ignore this blatant flaw.

Edited by Radman
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Beaker
Posted (edited)

I don't disagree that there are foreign born criminals, and that they bring their criminality here.  However the idea that only they are responsible for the uptick in crime is a at best pathetic, and at worst borders on actual fascism.

We even nogotiated and Opt-Out to the Schengen Agreement as well, so it isn't like we couldn't check as they entered the country if we actually wanted to.  Also to say Sadiq Kahn is responsible for the rises in crime that are more a result of cuts to funding across the board shows a lack of understanding of epic proportions. 

Edited by Beaker
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The Greater Good

Beaker, do you understand why violent crime in London is out of control? Yes, there has been knife crime in London for years but it has gone to a whole new level in the last ten years. 

The Border Force stopped someone on entry to the UK and asked what he did, he replied "Jihadist" he was allowed entry into the country.

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Radman
Posted (edited)
12 hours ago, Beaker said:

I don't disagree that there are foreign born criminals, and that they bring their criminality here.  However the idea that only they are responsible for the uptick in crime is a at best pathetic, and at worst borders on actual fascism.

We even nogotiated and Opt-Out to the Schengen Agreement as well, so it isn't like we couldn't check as they entered the country if we actually wanted to.  Also to say Sadiq Kahn is responsible for the rises in crime that are more a result of cuts to funding across the board shows a lack of understanding of epic proportions. 

You wont get any arguments from me in regards to the impact cuts in policing have had (although there is still a massive waste of money/resources being undertaken within HO forces due to a lack of political appetite to change)

Organised crime from the EU states is MASSIVE in the UK primarily the problem lies with Eastern European crime gangs running drugs and sadly people through the area with little in place to stop them. If you want to see the scale of the problem speak with BTP's dip team in London who primarily deal with organised Eastern European pickpockets, ATM Fraudsters and organised aggressive beggars. My own dealings with human trafficking where I intervened in the safe guarding of a Lithuanian woman with severe mental health problems who had been trafficked from one EU state to the next by a gang who had pressed her into a life of drug abuse and prostitution, this is happening under our noses and the free movement of people facilitates this crime.

You frankly have been conditioned to see any opposition to free movement as a 'fascist' policy and in my mind atleast this is the saddest and most damaging aspect to free thinking facing our nation at the minute. Wanting secure checks on foreign nationals before they move to the UK is not a fascist ideal, pointing out that the NCA has identified Eastern European gangs control significant proportions of Human Trafficking and Drugs coming into the UK is a fact. No doubt some people will argue that we need access to other EU nations criminal databases but this is perhaps the biggest joke of the remain argument in regards to security - many EU nations especially the former Soviet Bloc states do not keep accurate electronic records of criminal convictions, relying instead on paper based systems requiring convoluted processes to even successfully submit an application  (Do you know the offenders mothers maiden name? Fathers name? Village they were born in? Do you trust the information volunteered by your prisoner? If you can't access this information or you D/P refuses the powers that be won't even process your application.) 

This is a problem and needs addressing, the only way it was ever going to be addressed was by leaving the EU and putting in similar checks in place that other foreign nationals must jump through before being allowed a move to the UK.

My decision to vote leave was driven by an obvious weakness in our national security.

Edited by Radman
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The Greater Good
8 minutes ago, Radman said:

You wont get any arguments from me in regards to the impact cuts in policing have had (although there is still a massive waste of money/resources being undertaken within HO forces due to a lack of political appetite to change)

Organised crime from the EU states is MASSIVE in the UK primarily the problem lies with Eastern European crime gangs running drugs and sadly people through the area with little in place to stop them. If you want to see the scale of the problem speak with BTP's dip team in London who primarily deal with organised Eastern European pickpockets, ATM Fraudsters and organised aggressive beggars. My own dealings with human trafficking where I intervened in the safe guarding of a Lithuanian woman with severe mental health problems who had been trafficked from one EU state to the next by a gang who had pressed her into a life of drug abuse and prostitution, this is happening under our noses and the free movement of people facilitates this crime.

You frankly have been conditioned to see any opposition to free movement as a 'fascist' policy and in my mind atleast this is the saddest and most damaging aspect to free thinking facing our nation at the minute. Wanting secure checks on foreign nationals before they move to the UK is not a fascist ideal, pointing out that the NCA has identified Eastern European gangs control significant proportions of Human Trafficking and Drugs coming into the UK is a fact. No doubt some people will argue that we need access to other EU nations criminal databases but this is perhaps the biggest joke of the remain argument in regards to security - many EU nations especially the former Soviet Bloc states do not keep accurate electronic records of criminal convictions, relying instead on paper based systems requiring convoluted processes to even successfully submit an application  (Do you know the offenders mothers maiden name? Fathers name? Village they were born in? Do you trust the information volunteered by your prisoner? If you can't access this information or you D/P refuses the powers that be won't even process your application.) 

This is a problem and needs addressing, the only way it was ever going to be addressed was by leaving the EU and putting in similar checks in place that other foreign nationals must jump through before being allowed a move to the UK.

7

I really wasn't expecting to see that sort of comment in this forum! 

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Cje.ex999
15 minutes ago, The Greater Good said:

I really wasn't expecting to see that sort of comment in this forum! 

And why not ?

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Beaker
Beaker, do you understand why violent crime in London is out of control? Yes, there has been knife crime in London for years but it has gone to a whole new level in the last ten years. 
The Border Force stopped someone on entry to the UK and asked what he did, he replied "Jihadist" he was allowed entry into the country.
Yes I do understand, and perhaps rather than lay the blame exclusive at the door on immigrants and a lord mayor they might consider looking to blame the current government who have overseen massive cuts to policing resources. While you can "work smarter" you still reach a point where your resources just aren't available to deal with things. We're past that point, well past, and they're still cutting resources.

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Radman
15 minutes ago, The Greater Good said:

I really wasn't expecting to see that sort of comment in this forum! 

I think you'll find alot of front line officers have similar stories to tell, ignoring economic benefits etc the free movement of people does enable certain types of crime (obviously it does, common sense would dictate this.) Crime is what I am concerned with... Obviously.

Most people from the EU are hard working individuals who simply want to come to Britain to earn a living and support their families, this isn't in dispute however certain camps in Britain seem to pretend that membership of the EU hasn't caused problems within our communities (bare in mind I live in the North of England) which most working class people living in our towns/inner cities have lived with this knowledge for years now. It wasn't surprising for me to see the massive divide in the way the nation voted, London being very pro-EU to the rest of England that largely was against it.

My better half is mixed raced, her father came to Britain in the 70's to start a new and better life. Her family integrated well into the community, ran businesses and were prosperous. That being said my wife grew up experiencing horrible bullying and abuse from ignorant individuals that I can't imagine as it wasn't something I was ever subjected to being the white working class man that I am. I  am of course not against immigration, I am however against an open border where no checks can take place to ensure the people coming aren't going to contribute to our nations problems or exacerbate them.

For me we need these checks and balances in place.

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The Greater Good
38 minutes ago, Cje.ex999 said:

And why not ?

Past experience on the sister forum I guess! Post a comment that you have concerns and you get labelled a racist troll....

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Beaker
You wont get any arguments from me in regards to the impact cuts in policing have had (although there is still a massive waste of money/resources being undertaken within HO forces due to a lack of political appetite to change)
Organised crime from the EU states is MASSIVE in the UK primarily the problem lies with Eastern European crime gangs running drugs and sadly people through the area with little in place to stop them. If you want to see the scale of the problem speak with BTP's dip team in London who primarily deal with organised Eastern European pickpockets, ATM Fraudsters and organised aggressive beggars. My own dealings with human trafficking where I intervened in the safe guarding of a Lithuanian woman with severe mental health problems who had been trafficked from one EU state to the next by a gang who had pressed her into a life of drug abuse and prostitution, this is happening under our noses and the free movement of people facilitates this crime.
You frankly have been conditioned to see any opposition to free movement as a 'fascist' policy and in my mind atleast this is the saddest and most damaging aspect to free thinking facing our nation at the minute. Wanting secure checks on foreign nationals before they move to the UK is not a fascist ideal, pointing out that the NCA has identified Eastern European gangs control significant proportions of Human Trafficking and Drugs coming into the UK is a fact. No doubt some people will argue that we need access to other EU nations criminal databases but this is perhaps the biggest joke of the remain argument in regards to security - many EU nations especially the former Soviet Bloc states do not keep accurate electronic records of criminal convictions, relying instead on paper based systems requiring convoluted processes to even successfully submit an application  (Do you know the offenders mothers maiden name? Fathers name? Village they were born in? Do you trust the information volunteered by your prisoner? If you can't access this information or you D/P refuses the powers that be won't even process your application.) 
This is a problem and needs addressing, the only way it was ever going to be addressed was by leaving the EU and putting in similar checks in place that other foreign nationals must jump through before being allowed a move to the UK.
My decision to vote leave was driven by an obvious weakness in our national security.
I've not been conditioned to see anything any particular way. Heck, I even used to vote Tory until the current cluster of nasty tools got in.

I've no argument that criminals arrive in the country from elsewhere in the EU, and bring their criminal activities with them. However Trump is blaming immigrants and Sadiq Khan exclusively. You know, there is a parallel here from some European country in the 1930s, can't remember which one though, might have been Germany. Pick a group of people who aren't the majority, blame them for everyone's ills, rile the 40-ish percent of people you need to gain power up, and then step forward to the next phase. Everyone said it couldn't happen then either because they were a forward thinking country in the modern day (for then).

What they need to do is fund the police and law enforcement properly, give them the powers they need, and let them roll woth it. Not pick a group and blame them for everything.

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Radman
Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Beaker said:

I've not been conditioned to see anything any particular way. Heck, I even used to vote Tory until the current cluster of nasty tools got in.

I've no argument that criminals arrive in the country from elsewhere in the EU, and bring their criminal activities with them. However Trump is blaming immigrants and Sadiq Khan exclusively. You know, there is a parallel here from some European country in the 1930s, can't remember which one though, might have been Germany. Pick a group of people who aren't the majority, blame them for everyone's ills, rile the 40-ish percent of people you need to gain power up, and then step forward to the next phase. Everyone said it couldn't happen then either because they were a forward thinking country in the modern day (for then).

What they need to do is fund the police and law enforcement properly, give them the powers they need, and let them roll woth it. Not pick a group and blame them for everything.

Equally you can't just point at people who raise genuine concerns about lax immigration and automatically draw parallels with Nazi Germany. You cannot keep pointing fingers saying "Fascist!" at everyone who raises valid flaws with the system.

We have serious problems in the UK especially in relation to law and order - we have serious gaps in our ability to effectively police and systems which should be in place to protect people aren't. I am suggesting to you that the problem with organised crime has been massively exacerbated because of open border immigration from the EU (it clearly has and can be easily evidenced.) I am not stating to you that only immigrants commit crime, that would be stupid thing to say however I am telling you that our membership of the EU has made the problem worse thanks to our open border and any officer with any frontline experience will be able to tell you this with some confidence.

We need to have a sensible and reasoned debate but at the moment what we have is people on the fringe left pointing fingers, labeling people as racists/fascists and totally ignoring quite legitimate complaints that normal hard working people have in relation to crime and immigration, unless of course you're suggesting the vast majority of the country is thick?

London's crime spree at the moment in my opinion (I'm not a Londoner) is down to broken families, households without discipline and ultimately the embracing of a toxic gangland style culture that glorifies violence, money and narcissistic behaviour. This coupled with lack of frontline, community policing (proper community policing) has led to a massive distrust in the police and a 'us' and 'them' attitude.

Where I am from my city is a mess of aggressive begging, spice users and sadly now knife crime yet nothing is being done to curb the issue, the home office force where I am has resorted to fire brigade policing chasing targets set by the home office and NOT what the local people who fund them want their constabulary to be dealing with. This I feel is the BIGGEST problem with our county model of policing, on paper we have 43 'county' forces serving their local areas, I feel these forces especially target wise are simply different in name only - they are at the whim of central government and not accountable to the town/city halls who fund their upkeep or the people who pay the tax for the forces upkeep. We have forgotten what local policing is so much so that duties such as foot patrol, crime prevention, community engagement etc etc simply doesn't exist in many areas, the police have become the boogey men riding around in marked cars only interacting with the public when something is wrong or they have been called to something, we have effectively withdrawn from the wider community around us. 

My model would be to hand the ability back to local government to atleast attempt to undertake some of these duties back from the home office and again have a level of accountability to constabularies again, having uniformed people back out on the street who aren't just there for show or to scarecrow about but who can actually deal with 99% of issues should they be encountered and secondly serve as a reassuring face the public want to see.

Edited by Radman
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Beaker
2 minutes ago, Radman said:

Equally you can't just point at people who raise genuine concerns about lax immigration and automatically draw parallels with Nazi Germany. You cannot keep pointing fingers saying "Fascist!" at everyone who raises valid flaws with the system. 

We have serious problems in the UK especially in relation to law and order - we have serious gaps in our ability to effectively police and systems which should be in place to protect people aren't. I am suggesting to you that the problem with organised crime has been massively exacerbated because of open border immigration from the EU (it clearly has and can be easily evidenced.) I am not stating to you that only immigrants commit crime, that would be stupid thing to say however I am telling you that our membership of the EU has made the problem worse thanks to our open border and any officer with any frontline cop with experience will be able to tell you this with some confidence. 

We need to have a sensible and reasoned debate but at the moment what we have is people on the fringe left pointing fingers, labeling people as racists/fascists and totally ignoring quite legitimate complaints that normal hard working people have in relation to crime and immigration, unless of course you're suggesting the vast majority of the country is thick?

London's crime spree at the moment in my opinion (I'm not a Londoner) is down to broken families, households without discipline and ultimately the embracing of a toxic gangland style culture that glorifies violence, money and narcissistic behaviour. This coupled with lack of frontline, community policing (proper community policing) has led to a massive distrust in the police and a 'us' and 'them' attitude.

Where I am from my city is a mess of aggressive begging, spice users and sadly now knife crime yet nothing is being done to curb the issue, the home office force where I am has resorted to fire brigade policing chasing targets set by the home office and NOT what the local people who fund them want their constabulary to be dealing with. This I feel is the BIGGEST problem with our county model of policing, on paper we have 43 'county' forces serving their local areas, I feel these forces especially target wise are simply different in name only - they are at the whim of central government and not accountable to the town/city halls who fund their upkeep or the people who pay the tax for the forces upkeep. We have forgotten what local policing is so much so that duties such as foot patrol, crime prevention, community engagement etc etc simply doesn't exist in many areas, the police have become the boogey men riding around in marked cars only interacting with the public when something is wrong or they have been called to something, we have effectively withdrawn from the wider community around us.  

TBH I think we have very similar views on what needs doing for the most part.  However we place the blame for it in slightly different places.  I blame the current government and their ideological pursuit of cutting essential public services.  If they funded the Police, NCA and Border Force correctly, and allowed them to do their jobs without target chasing and shrinking budgets we'd have a far better state of affairs.  As it is they're still cutting.  We're not even cutting close to the bone any more, we're actually cutting the bone itself.  The same applies to the MH services, Childrens services, NHS etc etc.  As it stands now they can't even argue it is needed, it's just ideology now. 

Our county council here just removed funding for another group of NHP staff.  Think it's 'only' about 17 or 18 officers and PCSOs, but it's yet another cut because they just can't afford them.  If it was in isolation it would make no real difference to cover, but these days it'll make a massive difference.  

We need more early action, we need more community engagement, we need more actual officers, we need the right equipment and we need the right training.  That applies all the way from the NCA down. 

As for pointing the finger and shouting Fascism, what else would you call it when you single out a minority and blame them for all the ills in the world?  You can't single out one group, or one person and say it's their fault.  There are more British criminals than Immigrants ones, Sadiq Khan has zero influence on immigration policy (Nor will he after Brexit).  We COULD have taken our Opt-Out without even entering in to a Commons vote, and thereby allow us to refuse entry based on criminal histories.  I was interested this week when at the NCA as it filled in a few bits I wasn't aware of, and their ability to share data etc with the rest of europe,  They're doing some Good Work, on a what appears to be a shoestring.

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