Port of Tilbury-Police Constable

[Fedster + 1,307]

CC Sara Thornton says degrees and apprenticeships are beneficial but changing recruitment has been a prerequisite for pay reform.

CC Sara Thornton

 

Part of the reason the police service is introducing degrees and apprenticeship qualifications for officers is to show government officials pay reform is needed, the head of the NPCC says.

Chief Constable Sara Thornton told the Home Affairs Select Committee today pressure from the Home Office and Treasury had helped bring about the changes.

She was asked about the proposal in light of the recent Police Federation Conference – where no representatives at all backed the plans which had just been presented by the NPCC lead on the issue.

At the conference, new Home Secretary Sajid Javid, a former Treasury minister, said he did not think all officers need degrees.

At the committee CC Thornton outlined that she thinks extra qualifications will make policing more effective.

But she added: “We need some workforce reform, partly because the workforce needs to be more effective. Partly because we need pay reform.

“The suggestion has been made by officials that if we don’t move forward on both workforce reform and pay reform, from the Treasury perspective it doesn’t look like it’s a police service that is very committed to modernisation and making the most of what it’s got.

“So there’s a political pressure that’s saying in 2025, or indeed 2018, do we want to have a workforce of officers that are more qualified and more skilled than they currently are? And I think the answer is ‘yes’ because that would better serve the public.”

Plans for police degrees were first unveiled by the College of Policing in 2015, with the body having earlier been against the idea. Before that it had been implied in Tom Winsor’s 2012 review of police pay and conditions.

Chiefs also want to reform pay to link it to specialist skills.

An £18,000 proposed starter salary for apprentices was recently unveiled. Apprenticeships are currently the only planned way in which people without a degree will be able to join the service.

National Crime Agency Director General Lynne Owens told MPs there has been a significant misunderstanding over the issue and she hears the anger at the suggestion every police officer would be required to have a degree. “That isn’t the proposal,” she said.

Joan Donnelly from the Police Federation said at the association’s conference recently that she questions the legality of paying apprentices £18,000 a year for doing the same job as their colleagues, while they have to study for a degree at the same time as they train and carry out their probation.

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[SimonT + 1,185]

Like so many things in the police, this is a total mess. 

Officers need degrees to get pay reform but not to do the job? We need to show the treasury we are modernising? 

What are these reasons and how can they possibly make sense. 

[Zulu 22 + 4,571]

Sara Thornton, and her cohorts are one of the biggest dangers to Policing in this country. I have know many with degree's who could just not hack it as Police Officers. About 15 years ago they should have said, "If it is not broken don't fix it".

[Reasonable Man + 1,231]

It's obvious that some people see the headline then react.
Zulu has shown his prejudice against police officers with degrees in many other posts so hardly surprising.
What is being explained is that if the police want to be considered a serious 'profession' with a commensurate salary then they should show that they are 'professionally' qualified.
At present a cop, whose only academic requirement is to pass a simple English and arithmetic test, can get a better paid job than a nurse, social worker, solicitor, quantity surveyor etc etc who have to spend years studying to be qualified. If 'the police' want pay reform then, like it or lump it, then have to be considered with other similarly qualified people.
If you think it's right to be considered a semi skilled blue collar worker then you can't complain at having blue collar pay rates.

[Zulu 22 + 4,571]

42 minutes ago, Reasonable Man said:

It's obvious that some people see the headline then react.
Zulu has shown his prejudice against police officers with degrees in many other posts so hardly surprising.
What is being explained is that if the police want to be considered a serious 'profession' with a commensurate salary then they should show that they are 'professionally' qualified.
At present a cop, whose only academic requirement is to pass a simple English and arithmetic test, can get a better paid job than a nurse, social worker, solicitor, quantity surveyor etc etc who have to spend years studying to be qualified. If 'the police' want pay reform then, like it or lump it, then have to be considered with other similarly qualified people.
If you think it's right to be considered a semi skilled blue collar worker then you can't complain at having blue collar pay rates.

No I have not shown a prejudice, but should I be surprised by your comment.  I have stated that I have known many with a degree who just could not hack as Police Officers. I have also known many who have been excellent officers. Probationary  Officers are similar to an apprentice learning their trade under supervision, guidance and training. My wife is a nurse and holds the same opinion regarding Nurse training. 

[Hyphen + 693]

4 hours ago, Reasonable Man said:

It's obvious that some people see the headline then react.
Zulu has shown his prejudice against police officers with degrees in many other posts so hardly surprising.
What is being explained is that if the police want to be considered a serious 'profession' with a commensurate salary then they should show that they are 'professionally' qualified.
At present a cop, whose only academic requirement is to pass a simple English and arithmetic test, can get a better paid job than a nurse, social worker, solicitor, quantity surveyor etc etc who have to spend years studying to be qualified. If 'the police' want pay reform then, like it or lump it, then have to be considered with other similarly qualified people.
If you think it's right to be considered a semi skilled blue collar worker then you can't complain at having blue collar pay rates.

I can see where your post is coming from however Policing in that sense is unique. It’s not a requirement to study to degree level for the job although the other professions you have stated do.

Policing is all about life experience, you get better at the job with the more you have. It’s all about communication, emotional intelligence and resilience. Although a degree is not needed it is still a job that many can not do.

Someone with a degree with little life experience will never be better than a cop with a lot of life experience/skills when dealing with jobs.

As for Sara Thornton I don’t rate her at all, she seems to love the political rhetoric and usually sounds clueless. 

[Ether + 1,395]

Precisely what’s needed, more academic study that bears no resemblance to real life. 

More structured and robust training is what’s needed. 

[Growley + 2,436]

I can see where your post is coming from however Policing in that sense is unique. It’s not a requirement to study to degree level for the job although the other professions you have stated do.
Policing is all about life experience, you get better at the job with the more you have. It’s all about communication, emotional intelligence and resilience. Although a degree is not needed it is still a job that many can not do.
Someone with a degree with little life experience will never be better than a cop with a lot of life experience/skills when dealing with jobs.
As for Sara Thornton I don’t rate her at all, she seems to love the political rhetoric and usually sounds clueless. 

In fairness, there is absolutely a large knowledge component to policing, and there are a lot of cops around who are quietly under performing in this area.

Most generally know their bread and butter, but I know several cops who've made mistakes with important things like search powers and powers of entry. It's not that they're unintelligent, just that there isn't much of a culture in the police of intellectual curiosity and researching things to either 'top up' your knowledge, or learn new developments in a certain area. A degree doesn't automatically fix this, but those with a more developed education will tend to lean in that direction, because it's how you do things during a degree.

I'm not saying I agree that all cops should need degrees, because I don't, but we as a group could absolutely benefit from some of the associated skills.

[Reasonable Man + 1,231]

No I have not shown a prejudice, but should I be surprised by your comment.  I have stated that I have known many with a degree who just could not hack as Police Officers. I have also known many who have been excellent officers. Probationary  Officers are similar to an apprentice learning their trade under supervision, guidance and training. My wife is a nurse and holds the same opinion regarding Nurse training. 

So why do you always post negative things about people with degrees, only saying something positive when called up on your negativity.
Anyone in policing with their eyes open have seen good and bad in people with degrees, so no point in labelling them either way.

[Reasonable Man + 1,231]

Precisely what’s needed, more academic study that bears no resemblance to real life. 
More structured and robust training is what’s needed. 

Who said anything about academic study that has no resemblance to real life? Do you know what a multi-disciplined degree can look like?
See@Growley 's post for how such study can be very relevant for policing. Structured and robust training in subjects relevant to the job resulting in a degree level qualification. Cops with the training to think critically, read people, debate and discuss, understand more about how society works, how to summarise information and write succinctly covering the relevant points.

[SimonT + 1,185]

I have a degree, I'm quite happy with how much I get paid. I hardly use my degree or associated skills to their full potential and if I wasn't on policing I would expect to be paid less. 

But I work complex shifts, get exposed to all sorts of traumatic and awful things and have a higher chance of death. So it works out. 

I wouldn't mind some extra training and knowledge updates, but we lack the staff to deliver that and the motivation of a burned out workforce. 

You can get all your degree learning in but that doesn't guarantee you will remember the important stuff 5y later. 

[Beaker 817]

I hardly use my degree or associated skills to their full potential

This was a complaint from a DI I was speaking to about some specialist stuff I'm getting involved with. There is a huge pool of qualified talent who need support, and could be of great value if you can fit them in the right hole. As it stands everyone is a square peg, and they're going to be hammered in to it regardless until they fit.

[SimonT + 1,185]

Sounds like pretty standard police procedure. I see you are an expert in X, you are now in charge of Y. Didn't ask to be moved? Oh well. 

[Beaker 817]

What gets me with being from a nerd background is that they're effectively handicapping themselves in some areas. If you've got someone with extensive experience in a field who could fill a hole in capability then why not slide them in that direction? Nobody joins the police these days for a massive payday, they're motivated (for the most part) rather than driven by the wages. The stuff I'm getting involved with relates to cybercrime, as they've identified an urgent operational need for people familiar with the tech. I've done company investigation related to computers before. I'm a bit rusty, but I can think of a couple of officers off the top of my head who would be excellent if they were given the chance.

[Ether + 1,395]

9 hours ago, Reasonable Man said:

Who said anything about academic study that has no resemblance to real life? Do you know what a multi-disciplined degree can look like?
See@Growley 's post for how such study can be very relevant for policing. Structured and robust training in subjects relevant to the job resulting in a degree level qualification. Cops with the training to think critically, read people, debate and discuss, understand more about how society works, how to summarise information and write succinctly covering the relevant points.

I simply do not have enough belief to believe this will be beneficial, practical and necessary.  

Don't get me wrong I am all for helping cops progress, but the current recruitment process and standard leaves me with little optimism.