Met police firearms

[Fedster + 1,307]

Fed rep casts doubt on ability to deal with 2011-style disorder without military support.

CC Sara Thornton

 

The head of the National Police Chiefs’ Council says she wants to reassure the public the service would be ready to tackle “a crisis” despite years of cuts to budgets.

Chief Constable Sara Thornton says the National Police Coordination Centre (NPoCC) can mobilise enough officers to deal with major disorder if it needs to.

She was responding to a question from Derbyshire Police Federation rep Gareth Podmore at the staff association’s national conference.

Mr Podmore said: “My biggest fear is, we’ve got a massive problem looming.

“Can the panel look us all in the eye with the confidence and say that if [the] 2011 [riots] would happen again this summer we would have enough staff to deal with not only policing riot zones within this country but the day-to-day policing, without having to resort to having to put the military onto the streets of this country?”

Policing Minister Nick Hurd said he believed it would but accepted the case funding needed to increase.

CC Thornton said: “We have nationally set numbers of [police support units] that have to be mobilised in the case of some sort of crisis that you’re talking about.”

She said tests have been taking place in the last year on the issue.

“What’s happened in those tests is that we can get to the total number in 24 hours but sometimes we’re not getting all the total PSUs in the right place.

"So it is tight but I can assure you and the public that those mobilisation plans are tested.

“There is a bigger issue about resources and what’s left behind but if there is a crisis British policing does have a mobilisation plan.”

But Police Federation of England and Wales chairman Calum Macleod pointed out that the service has 18,000 fewer officers than it did in 2011.

“Services would be incredibly stretched and public safety would be compromised,” he said.

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[Sierra Lima + 117]

Haha haha 😂

[SD + 688]

Lies. All lies. 1/6 of GMP staff are student officers with only a handful PSU trained. 

[andi + 1,262]

Gmp have been training office based staff in level 3 psu, as they know we won't cope if we rely on L1 and L2 trained officers.

 

 

[MerseyLLB 8,426]

I would agree with the above. There must be twisting of the figures to include level 3 PSUs. 

On my old BCU we completed level 2 PSU nominations each shift and we could field 1+6 plus driver with ease which fit into the mobilisation plan. That was from section and didn't include neighbourhood, tactical teams etc. Where I am now we have 1 + 3 with one of those having to be the driver on section. We could probably muster  a serial by borrowing from other departments. 

The other issue is the reluctance of forces to call for MA early on. The Met as the biggest user of level 2 resources is well known for being unwilling to ask for help. Without going into detail there has been at least 1 occasion I know of in Kent where we have been available and willing but the request never came. Im also aware of one situation here where asking for MA would have mitigated an issue but we never asked for assistance.

Talking more widely of assistance - I've utilised BTP several times by directly requesting their assistance via radio. They've been willing and available but it seems that as a force we don't use informal requests.

 

[bensonby + 3,503]

11 minutes ago, MerseyLLB said:

The Met as the biggest user of level 2 resources is well known for being unwilling to ask for help. 

 

Whilst the Met rarely asks for assistance I’m not sure it’s entirely a fair criticism: when the wheel really comes off and the Met can’t cope we ask for help, and quickly. I remember being relieved by TVP and Kent officers outside Tottenham Nick on the morning of the 7th of August 2011 having been fighting all night. A welcome sight if ever there was one.

[MerseyLLB 8,426]

10 minutes ago, bensonby said:

Whilst the Met rarely asks for assistance I’m not sure it’s entirely a fair criticism: when the wheel really comes off and the Met can’t cope we ask for help, and quickly. I remember being relieved by TVP and Kent officers outside Tottenham Nick on the morning of the 7th of August 2011 having been fighting all night. A welcome sight if ever there was one.

That was exceptional. 

I don't think it's right that Met officers may be forced to work 18 hour shifts, leave cancelled and so on when Kent could provide a handful of PSUs at relatively short notice if asked. In fact if the Met only asked Kent and Essex (who have a strategic alliance anyway) we could provide a considerable number of resources.

I say that with absolute appreciation of the significant demand the Met faces. When I was in BTP I had a good working relationship with the Met in CW, QK, QA and STT. The demands were considerable and quite often the Met were robbing Peter to pay Paul just yo keep their heads above water even then.

As I said, we are guilty as well. There was a time not long ago when a critical incident was raised due to the number of high risk immediate calls unanswered forcewide - borderless was exhausted as was the deployment of TacOps resources (traffic dogs firearms etc) to divisional control. It really was breaking point and whilst I'm not privvy to the politics and costs if I were in the top seat I would have asked for bordering forces assistance. Instead protocols were broken... double crews at jobs were split, I was left single crewed on a prisoner guard at hospital and officers dealing with offenders were turned away from that being diverted to calls.

[mike88 + 257]

Im recently PSU level 2 trained and 90% of our course didn’t even have our kit issued in time and had to borrow from colleagues. Two months later and I still haven’t got my own overalls it’s a shambles. 

[CountyCop + 178]

13 hours ago, andi said:

Gmp have been training office based staff in level 3 psu, as they know we won't cope if we rely on L1 and L2 trained officers.

 

 

Same where we are, L3 PSU is integrated as part of OST training now. What I love is that we are so inadequately resorted and trained that regularly we can barley get 6-8 officers across the force who are PSU trained for tactical call outs.

As with anything the training and kit  costs money so there are no new courses.

[Mac7 808]

This is an example of so called leadership in modern policing. In response to a genuine concern the CC has given a political answer rather than the actual truth. Frustratingly there are many more similar “leaders” waiting in the wings who will also give the same political answers.

 

Mobilising a PSU, which to lay observers or new in service officers, is 3 vans, 18 PC’s, 3 Sgts, 3 drivers and an Inspector. That’s before you consider a medic, Tac A, and the staff required to staff a silver control. Each van should contain a set of intermediate shields, a set of round shields, a loud haler and a fire extinguisher.

 

It takes a VERY long time to mobile a PSU. I very much doubt that in the current climate many forces could spontaneously mobilise a full PSU in code 1 dress without having to call officers in from home. Trying to find 3 vans in my force would be the first issue.

 

So in theory we could deal with it. But the time taken to scramble the officers required would be huge and quite frankly embarrassing.

 

[Zulu 22 + 4,576]

I would not mind betting that Sara Thornton is not PSU trained.  She is talking a load of nonsense when so many Chiefs are now publicly voicing that Policing is in crisis, numbers wise and equipment  wise. 

"But Police Federation of England and Wales chairman Calum Macleod pointed out that the service has 18,000 fewer officers than it did in 2011." and that equates to roughley, just short of, 900 PSU's. 

Edited May 25, 2018 by Zulu 22

[Mac7 808]

Many forces reduced their numbers of PSU trained officers when the cuts came in. In the last couple of years they’ve realised they don’t have enough and started to retrain.

[SD + 688]

On 24/05/2018 at 22:15, andi said:

Gmp have been training office based staff in level 3 psu, as they know we won't cope if we rely on L1 and L2 trained officers.

 

 

Yeah as part of the basic OST training. Pointless as none have PSU kit so unlikely to be deployed. Double belt cordons ain’t getting used in a riot so nothing but smoke and mirrors!

[Sierra Lima + 117]

It's not only the numbers but also the tactics and the equipment. 

We wouldn't be able to cope with any kind of serious disorder. 

[Jeebs + 1,190]

It’s mandatory in my new force that all officers to the rank of inspector with less than 20years service are required to be PSU trained. The only exemptions are if people can provide a valid reason.

Although my ticket has been taken off me as I’m an ARVO, seems a little odd to me as I don’t think there are any other baton gunners in the force.