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Fedster

Shocking Footage Shows Motorcyclist Attacking A Police Officer

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Hyphen

Looked like a nasty one, could have ended a lot worse had it not been for the members of the public stepping in.

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Chaos

I was faced with something very similar only a couple of months ago, went to a domestic where I arrested a male for assault on his wife. During the arrest we struggled and he ended up on top of me both on the sofa... A red button later and some pava and I managed to get the upper hand...

 

It felt like ages but in reality it was only 30 seconds or so fighting.

 

Fortunately colleagues were not to far behind as I was single crewed in the house.

 

I got £50 compo and he got a rehabilitation order not a drink and to be good.... That's Justice for you...

 

 

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Zulu 22

You never know when it will happen. The problem is, we all know, that it will happen at some time. Courts must stamp down on this type of offence.

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Funkywingnut

Good job the PST/OST syllabus is so good at teaching ground fighting.... Oh no it isn't 

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Growley
Good job the PST/OST syllabus is so good at teaching ground fighting.... Oh no it isn't 
What grappling ability do you hope to develop with such little time?

I remember being shown a mount escape of sorts in OST once; it was bloody rubbish, but without the time to teach people basic principles of using their hips effectively, there isn't really much option.

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Funkywingnut
Posted (edited)
8 minutes ago, Growley said:

What grappling ability do you hope to develop with such little time?

I remember being shown a mount escape of sorts in OST once; it was bloody rubbish, but without the time to teach people basic principles of using their hips effectively, there isn't really much option.

I think thats  the issue isn't it, OST and self defence on the whole get very little investment.  

How is there no regular and progressive classes offered regularly to Officers?  Granted Officers may have to participate in their own time, but many would if it was good training. The OST syllabus is so old and lacking in offensive techniques it is largely useless.  Many of the techniques appear to derive from Aikido, which is one of the more technical and ineffective martial arts to learn quickly. 

Looking at the video the officer was in a bad position, but he still had options if he had a small amount of training. 

The officer wasn't in a mounted position, he had the offender between his legs, so he could have controlled him with his legs instead of thrashing them around.  He could have dragged the offender close to him that would reduce the amount and intensity of the punches and then he would have potentially been able to change a position. 

Yes I know its easy to say and I am in no way criticising his actions, I am commenting on possible options. 

Edited by Funkywingnut
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MerseyLLB

It probably doesn't help if this officer was sat there only a few days before on police Oracle reading articles of officers who are stuck on for use of force...

Say what you like your brain works in funny ways. I experience the same issues. I had what I would call an slow motiin thought the other day whilst wrestling with a MH woman with a kitchen knife in her hand. It was probably over the space of a second. I was looking at the knife. It was half in her closed hand, the blade, and so I remember thinking if I loosened one of my hands from her arm and tried to rip it from her hand it would probably slice her hand open. So i kept two hands on her arm. The blade was pointing up towards me. The subject was a very very large build woman - not strong for her size but by virtue of her size she was pretty strong (if that makes sense). There was a colleague present who had detained her other arm but due to her size that's all he could do. I remembered thinking the best opportunity to me would be to distract her with an elbow strike to the jaw which I could manage without moving one of my arms too far from her arm with the knife. But then I was thinking about how she was a female, and how if she put a complaint in they would judge it on that. I was in a bit of a stalemate with myself but I was also aware if I tired before her there was a kitchen knife waving about.

Luckily, in the seconds that followed, a 3rd officer arrived and we were able to use the mechanics of the arm to get the knife off of the female at which point she gave up and allowed herself to be put in handcuffs.

There's all sorts of phrases of  bravado 'better tried by 12 than carried by 6' etc but in this day and age there is a psychological effect on use of force by the perverse decisions (in our own minds) that happen nationally.

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mike88
12 hours ago, Chaos said:

I was faced with something very similar only a couple of months ago, went to a domestic where I arrested a male for assault on his wife. During the arrest we struggled and he ended up on top of me both on the sofa... A red button later and some pava and I managed to get the upper hand...

 

It felt like ages but in reality it was only 30 seconds or so fighting.

 

Fortunately colleagues were not to far behind as I was single crewed in the house.

 

I got £50 compo and he got a rehabilitation order not a drink and to be good.... That's Justice for you...

 

 

 

Are officers often sent to domestics single crewed where you are? It simply isn't safe and shouldn't happen.

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Growley
I think thats  the issue isn't it, OST and self defence on the whole get very little investment.  
How is there no regular and progressive classes offered regularly to Officers?  Granted Officers may have to participate in their own time, but many would if it was good training. The OST syllabus is so old and lacking in offensive techniques it is largely useless.  Many of the techniques appear to derive from Aikido, which is one of the more technical and ineffective martial arts to learn quickly. 
Looking at the video the officer was in a bad position, but he still had options if he had a small amount of training. 
The officer wasn't in a mounted position, he had the offender between his legs, so he could have controlled him with his legs instead of thrashing them around.  He could have dragged the offender close to him that would reduce the amount and intensity of the punches and then he would have potentially been able to change a position. 
Yes I know its easy to say and I am in no way criticising his actions, I am commenting on possible options. 
The thing is, you start offering classes for free, you get a great turnout the first few days, and then it goes back to the guys and girls who already trained in their own time will continue training, and the ones who didn't will stop. If people are undisciplined or disinterested, you can't make them train in their own time.

My reference to mount escapes wasn't a direct reference to the video, just that it was the only thing referencing ground-based grappling I've seen in OST. That being said, working from the guard maintains all the same principles; if you don't know how to use your hips effectively your options are still very limited.

Cops need to take some personal responsibility for their own safety.

That being said, I personally wouldn't criticise the officer; I do train in my own time, and I've found myself in a similar position on a previous occasion. Kit, clothing and other obstructions can still make it very difficult to do much rom your back against a strong and motivated attacker.
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Zulu 22

The problem is that training is never like the real thing. In training they are not trying to kill you and there is control so when they say stop, you stop. In relief it is a completely different thing.  My maxim was always finish something as quickly as possible, the shorter the struggle the fewer injuries to you and to the other person. You can always justify the violence unless you go over the top. The motor cyclist had the advantage as I do not for one moment expect that the officer expected a sudden violent attack on a stop check vehicle.

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Richhamdo
Posted (edited)

@Funkywingnut. @GrowleyTalking about Officer Safety Training (OST)It’s interesting how use of force/officer safety/self defence training has changed over the years,(to me anyway).when I started in the early seventies all I got was about an hour or maybe an hour and a half training on a couple of hard gym mats  borrowed an hour earlier from the local school. It was usually in the training room with the tables and chairs moved to the side and just once a year. We were shown  the Half  Nelson and a few Judo holds and things like that by someone, I think he was a volunteer from an  Army camp. Whether or not I ever applied them correctly when the time came I wouldn’t care to say. I don’t recall being taught anything about conflict resolutions/impact factors and all that sort of thing, but it is going back a bit so I might have forgotten that we got that side to it. Maybe we just adapted as time went by because I don’t think any conflict with the public was ever the same. 

As far as I can recall there were just as many domestics, drunken hooligans etc then  as there were when I finished, in fact there were definitely more, people seemed to drink more then I think but somehow or other we adapted to the situation when we arrived on scene, again using what personnel skills we happened to have or picked up from others  bobbies. Having said that there were certainly not as many drugged up people on cannabis or stuff then. 

I think OST is a bit of a trade off, it has to be otherwise one or two in the class would be off work on Monday morning with sprained fingers and arms plus  bad backs and things like that. That happened on numerous occasions with our specials (including me)usually caused by perhaps a new special who was just  a bit too keen. Those of us who had been in for a few years just went easy with one another. I wouldn’t be at all surprised if the regs adopted the same kind of approach and thinking, but I’m only speculating on that.

 Incidentally, just about the only hold I ever remembered over the years was the “cross arm block” I think that was something to do with aikido as we used to get that years ago, as you know things change constantly with this game. I  have no idea why certain holds sink in and others dont.  Maybe  I thought at the time it was a good idea and would come in useful, I used it on a trainer once when he told me to protect myself because he was coming at me with one of those rubber batons. He knew immediately it was from the seventies training era. .?Rich. 

Edited by Richhamdo
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Growley
The problem is that training is never like the real thing. In training they are not trying to kill you and there is control so when they say stop, you stop. In relief it is a completely different thing.  My maxim was always finish something as quickly as possible, the shorter the struggle the fewer injuries to you and to the other person. You can always justify the violence unless you go over the top. The motor cyclist had the advantage as I do not for one moment expect that the officer expected a sudden violent attack on a stop check vehicle.
Yes, training isn't the real thing; that much is obvious. However, the benefit of training is that you can learn how to apply technique under pressure, which is ultimately what carries over into the real thing.

I think any cop would agree you want to finish things as fast as possible; funnily enough you can get that control of a situation faster if you're trained and you actually know what you're doing.

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Chaos
 

Are officers often sent to domestics single crewed where you are? It simply isn't safe and shouldn't happen.

It's a necessary evil, the job came out, I was only a mile a way single crewed. My back up was 6 or so miles away, so naturally I was first at scene.

 

Now do I wait outside for back up while their is a domestic going on inside... Or do I go in on my own and try to manage things untill back up arrives.

 

Obviously I chose to go in, as probably what the public would expect the police to do.

 

I'm on nights all this week, and guaranteed just like last night, all patrols will get tied up at jobs and I will be breaking off from paperwork to go to a job single crewed.

 

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Tempo

From a personal perspective in this day and age with combat sports becoming more and more popular and the general public taking up these sports more such as Thai boxing, BJJ, wrestling and straight up MMA if you as an officer with very minimal training come up against one of these people it could end really really badly and you just do not know who has a background in these disciplines untill you tangle with them.

It would be great if the forces could look to work with local teams to get officers skilled up with ground fighting, defending yourself from bottom positions and just some better training that is applicable to the types of situations we are going to be working with. Quite simply PST from my experience is just not fit for purpose, control holds etc just do not work in reality.

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