Port of Tilbury-Police Constable

[Fedster + 1,307]

His comments contradict the Home Secretary's claims made in November.

Michel Barnier, PA

Brussels’ chief Brexit negotiator says Britain will be shut out of Europol just weeks after the Home Secretary told a room full of police chiefs her conversations in Europe had been “very positive.”

The European’s chief negotiator for Brexit Michel Barnier warned at a security conference in Berlin this week there must be "no horse-trading" with the security of Europe's citizens as a result of Brexit.

He set out the EU's hopes for a "broad, beneficial and balanced" post-Brexit security relationship, under which the UK will be able voluntarily to participate in European missions and operations, joint armaments programmes and exchanges on intelligence and cyber-warfare.

But he made clear the UK will lose "levers for wielding influence" over European security, with no right to take part in meetings of defence ministers and ambassadors, no ability to take commanding roles in EU-led operations and no membership of the European Defence Agency or law enforcement agency Europol.

His comments follow Home Secretary Amber Rudd’s claims at the National Police Chiefs’ Council and Association of Police and Crime Commissioners summit in November that she is hoping Britain would maintain membership in Europol.

“We want to make sure we keep people just as safe as we leave the European Union. We are proposing a third party treaty to enable us to still have access to all the systems in the EU we have found so useful including Europol,” she said on November 1.

“All these elements help keep people safe because they provide information about people coming and going. We hope to have full access to that. I don’t underestimate the challenge in pulling it together but my initial conversations in Europe have been very positive. They say they want this to happen - UK is one of the biggest contributors to Europol."     

Mr Barnier said during its membership of the EU, the UK has "not been the spearhead" of European defence, making "limited" contributions to EU-led missions and resisting plans to set up a European defence headquarters, he said, adding: "The British have never wanted to turn the Union into a military power."

He indicated the UK will now have to accept a more "autonomous" European approach to defence, in the light of the "strategic repositioning" of the US under President Donald Trump.

"Our aim, autonomous and united European defence, which means a Union capable of acting by itself and always supportive in its alliances," he said.

"The construction of a 'Europe of Defence' has begun.

"Obviously, we will not wait for the United Kingdom to implement it, but when the time comes we will be ready to co-operate with the United Kingdom."

Mr Barnier said the EU was hoping for an "ambitious partnership" with the UK on security.

"Theresa May has assured the member states several times that the UK is committed unconditionally to upholding European security," he said.

"I welcome this commitment and thank Theresa May for making it.

"History teaches us that there must be no horse-trading over the security of Europeans, that is an absolute necessity."

In July, Chris Farrimond, deputy director of the intelligence collection and international directorate at the NCA stressed the critical importance of Europol but admitted Britain may have to settle for observer status.

He said at the Criminal Justice Conference 2025: "Why the European law enforcement relationship is so important to us is that increasingly all serious organised crime has an element to it, we share the same threats. 

"Although we may attach different different priorities in different nations, and that does affect the level of cooperation in some areas, we share the same risks including drugs, child sexual exploitation and guns."

"This (current status) means we can have a pretty good expectation of the kind of response we will get from partners with such things as sharing undercover officers and other resources.”

And in May Europol director Ron Wainwright warned retaining membership would not be an “easy cut-and-paste agreement.”  

National Police Chiefs’ Council Lead for International Criminality, Temporary Deputy Assistant Commissioner Richard Martin said:  "The shape of our future relationship with Europe, including our relationship with Europol, is quite rightly an issue for government to negotiate.

“Police chiefs, the NCA and other law enforcement partners have been clear that we require close cooperation and continued intelligence and data sharing with our European colleagues to ensure the safety of our communities from increasingly cross-border threats such as organised crime, child sexual abuse, cyber-attacks and violent crime.”

But he failed to address questions about whether he is concerned Mr Barnier’s comments came just weeks after the Home Secretary claimed talks were progressing well.

A spokesman for the Home Office said: "The Prime Minister has set out the UK’s unconditional commitment to continue to cooperate with the EU on security, covering all aspects of our security relationship with the EU from foreign and defence policy, to law enforcement and criminal judicial cooperation.

"We recently outlined proposals that set out our ambition for this future partnership, building on the already deep level of collaboration that exists with the EU.

"Both the UK and EU have made clear our shared commitment to continued cooperation to keep Europe safe – but the exact nature of this is subject to ongoing negotiations." 

But he did not respond to specific questions about Amber Rudd's conference speech on November 1. 

View On Police Oracle

[Burnsy2023 2,895]

Brexit: making is poorer and less secure by the day.

[Radman + 2,163]

49 minutes ago, Burnsy2023 said:

Brexit: making is poorer and less secure by the day.

I don't know Burnsy, dealt with alot of EU nationals with multiple convictions in their home countries, some quite serious offences including sexual crimes and they simply walked into the nation without so much of a check being done on them - they were allowed to enter the UK unhindered.

[Fedster + 1,307]

I hope that you support our continued membership of EUROPOL. Is there ANY reason why the EU would not want us to be in it?
Barnier is no defence or crime expert and should stick to trade.

— Peter Jackson (@kaarrff) December 1, 2017

 

This is the worst thing about Brexit I've heard to date. Sounds very damaging imo. https://t.co/jcdtKyv7lr

— Susan (@Susan3089) December 1, 2017

[Mac7 808]

This will be to their detriment not ours. Our security and intelligence services are far far far superior to the likes of the French. And these comments come only days after the EU accused the UK of abandoning the fight against ISIS.

[Member of Public + 206]

Wasn't it not that long ago that Theresa May was threatening the EU with something along the lines of intelligence sharing in regards to terrorism? I can't remember exactly now as there's been such a lot that has happened in this pathetic circus, looks like her initial 'hard' stance is coming back to bite us all.

As for foreign criminals, there's plenty of them being allowed in from outside the EU. Very rarely do I hear of them being deported upon the commission of a crime. 

[Radman + 2,163]

6 minutes ago, PC Wannabe said:

Wasn't it not that long ago that Theresa May was threatening the EU with something along the lines of intelligence sharing in regards to terrorism? I can't remember exactly now as there's been such a lot that has happened in this pathetic circus, looks like her initial 'hard' stance is coming back to bite us all.

As for foreign criminals, there's plenty of them being allowed in from outside the EU. Very rarely do I hear of them being deported upon the commission of a crime. 

The point PC Wannabe is that if someone wants to immigrate to the UK there is usually a VISA process for them to hop through, including criminal background checks.

So if someone is Canadian or Indian or US Citizen as an example - there is a visa process.

If someone is a convicted criminal in Romania or France they can simply walk into the UK without any checks being undertaken - there is no safety net in place.

Which becomes REALLY apparent when you're dealing with people heavily involved in organised crime in Eastern Europe.

Edited December 1, 2017 by Radman

[Member of Public + 206]

1 hour ago, Radman said:

The point PC Wannabe is that if someone wants to immigrate to the UK there is usually a VISA process for them to hop through, including criminal background checks.

So if someone is Canadian or Indian or US Citizen as an example - there is a visa process.

If someone is a convicted criminal in Romania or France they can simply walk into the UK without any checks being undertaken - there is no safety net in place.

Which becomes REALLY apparent when you're dealing with people heavily involved in organised crime in Eastern Europe.

The visa process doesn't appear to be all that effective judging by all the non-EU immigrants I've seen in the news who have committed crime in this country. 

[Radman + 2,163]

10 minutes ago, PC Wannabe said:

The visa process doesn't appear to be all that effective judging by all the non-EU immigrants I've seen in the news who have committed crime in this country. 

Less effective than none?

If someone breaches their Visa they become arrestable under various immigration offences - an EU national up until very recently was just left to it - I do not understand how anyone can argue this point, it is a critical safety issue within our immigration system.

Edited December 1, 2017 by Radman

[Rocket + 6,403]

A 'No deal' solution is the only way for the UK to extricate ourselves from the ridiculous monetary demands and witterings  of the EU. I am confident that in the end that is the way it will be and we will be the ones better off.

[Member of Public + 206]

27 minutes ago, Radman said:

Less effective than none?

If someone breaches their Visa they become arrestable under various immigration offences - an EU national up until very recently was just left to it - I do not understand how anyone can argue this point, it is a critical safety issue within our immigration system.

No of course not, but I don't see 'brexit' making much difference given that they can't even get their house in order when it comes to the immigration they already do have full control over. We even have ISIS 'militants' who have returned to this country after travelling to places like Syria for heaven's sake. 

[Radman + 2,163]

2 hours ago, PC Wannabe said:

No of course not, but I don't see 'brexit' making much difference given that they can't even get their house in order when it comes to the immigration they already do have full control over. We even have ISIS 'militants' who have returned to this country after travelling to places like Syria for heaven's sake. 

Many of the returning ISIS fighters were British born and had British citizenship but interestingly enough they have exploited Europes free movement - moving between one EU nation to the next unchallenged.

You see Europes Borders are only as secure as the actual 'Border' nations are within the EU because there is no effective border control between member states internally. If you have an EU passport you can move from one EU nation to another without so much as having your passport glanced at in alot of cases - that frankly is unacceptable in todays world.

 

Edited December 1, 2017 by Radman

[Sierra Lima + 117]

5 hours ago, Mac7 said:

Our security and intelligence services are far far far superior to the likes of the French. 

Of course. The people who say that are probably the same ones who say that we have the best police force in the world! Well, not where I am. Despite all my hard work  the service I give is dreadful.

As for intelligence we don't share much with the force 10 miles away from my nick. I know that with terrorism it's a little better on a cross county/national level but in my experience it's not that great. 

[Member of Public + 206]

5 minutes ago, Radman said:

Many of the returning ISIS fighters were British born and had British citizenship but interestingly enough they have exploited Europes free movement - moving between one EU nation to the next unchallenged.

You see Europes Borders are only as secure as the actual 'Border' nations are within the EU because there is no effective border control between member states internally. If you have an EU passport you can move from one EU nation to another without so much as having your passport glanced at in alot of cases - that frankly is unacceptable in todays world.

Then we move back to the law enforcement issue, many poorer Eastern Bloc states are not only still rife with corruption (as highlighted in a recent EU commissioned report) but do not maintain even electronic criminal records systems - having a chat with an NCA contact the other month left me gobsmacked at the total lack of modernisation in some member states - the information required to even gain access to some foreign EU criminal records is ludicrous.

"Do you have the detained persons Mother & fathers full name?"

It's only when you have direct experience with these systems you realise how archaic they are compared to our own.

Full disclosure here I voted BREXIT and it was once specific case of mind that I dealt with a few years ago which swayed me, a long story short a teenage boy was subject to a public sexual assault in a train station, the suspect it turned out had previous convictions in his home country for similar offences yet he had moved to the UK and had been allowed to make a victim of this boy purely because he was never vetted.

Call me old fashioned but that was one victim too many in my book as a result of this failed system and the whole incident shifted my mindset completely - we as a nation had allowed this predator to walk into our country unchecked.

It is one of those investigations which sadly has bothered me for some years since.

I'm not going to dismiss your points - they are all valid points to me and I realise (all be it without having any first hand experience) that the EU borders system isn't up to an acceptable standard. I do also take your point about the borders within the EU only being as secure as those on the perimeter with non-EU countries - as of course once you're in one, you can pretty likely move around all the others. 

The sexual assault case you dealt with - I'm about to sound very controversial here but I do think that due to different cultures abroad, some immigrants from certain countries (all be it in fairness, most of those countries are non-EU members) - and I'm absolutely NOT saying all immigrants from those countries, can often have attitudes towards such matters which differ greatly to our own, particularly in regards to women. I think to suggest otherwise would be to bury one's head in the sand. However, the majority of such cases I've read about have been either immigrants from outside the EU who the government were under no obligation to allow into the country, or British born individuals but from a different cultural background to our own. Leaving the EU will go no way at all to solving any of those issues and I think they are far more prominent.

Then there's the issue that we (the UK) aren't exactly whiter than white in all this. How many of our criminals (armed robbers, gangsters, your lot) have exported themselves to other EU countries, particularly Spain Costa Del Sol? I personally know of one who is out there as we speak yet was meant to be going to prison for an offence he committed over here. Whether the case was dropped (despite him publicly admitting to it on camera for a documentary) I do not know but there has been absolutely nothing in the press about him even appearing in court. I've seen comments online from the Spanish stating how glad they are that we're leaving the EU which frankly makes me somewhat embarrassed.

People arriving from outside the EU are supposedly vetted but to what extent? Many seem to make it through despite the process and go on to commit crimes here. Also, people want immigration reduced (and understandably so - we're only a small island and levels are too high) yet we're letting in more people from outside the EU than from within it. Yet we were complaining to the EU about immigration in the months leading up to the referendum and for what its worth we were offered an exclusive deal on the matter were we to remain, I must be honest, the phrase 'get our own house in order' sprung to my mind. 

I just don't think 'brexit' will be this saving grace a lot of people have set it up to be to be honest. 

[Reasonable Man + 1,231]

This will be to their detriment not ours. Our security and intelligence services are far far far superior to the likes of the French.

And your evidence of this is what?
Sounds like a typical 'little Englander' view - because 'England' is better than any European country individually or collectively.