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chaos4122

What exactly is litter?

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chaos4122

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5099921/Wirral-Council-takes-man-court-cherry-stone-litter.html?ito=email_share_mobile-top
 
Environmental worker who refused to pay ?80 fine when he dropped three cherry stones in some trees now faces a criminal record and ?2,500 penalty?
 
Definition
 
A person is guilty of an offence if he throws down, drops or otherwise deposits any litter in any place to which this section applies, and leaves it.
 
 
So... What exactly is little? Is cherry stones come under the Definition? What if you pick a leaf up that was on the ground and then decided to drop it again in the same spot... Are you technically littering!
 
Is this Kingdome firm not using discretion when dealing with this crime due to the P.I. culture in the private sector.
 
This man in the mail online link...--->
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1192496/Man-dropped-pound-note-fined-50--littering.html
 
....Was given a £50 fine for dropping a £10 note that he picked up again, obviously!!
 
I have many times while on duty have asked someone to pick up the item they have dropped, and I would only consider writing them up if their attitude to the offence was poor and they refused to pick it up.
 
What would you do if a private littering enforcement officer asked for your assistance because someone was declining to give them name and address for dropping an apple core (or other item) under a tree?
 
I think I would tell the enforcement officer that I would be dealing, ask the male to pick up the item and then as a community resolution asked them to pick up two more bits of litter as a way of restorative justice.. crime it as such and that would be that.. no fine involved and there are 3 less bits of little on the street than there was before. Some how I don't think the enforcement officer would be happy with that and I have yet to try it out... But from what I can tell, that would be a perfectly legal way of dealing with it .
 
 

 

Edited by Chief Cheetah
Updated the title

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Indiana Jones

Litter isn't specifically defined in the act, but there's no way any normal person would consider an accidentally dropped tenner as litter. That'd be ripe for an appeal.

Although I'd not take action for dropping a few cherry pips in a wooded area, it would fit the offence. I would, for comparison, consider dealing with someone for dropping a banana skin at the base of a tree on a lawn.

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SimonT

I would be shocked that I was out of my car not currently dealing with an incident long enough for someone to speak to me. 

I would then use my judgement to not take any action and go and do something else. 

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BlueBob

Like many thinks out sourced, it’s not about education or engagement, rather it’s about income generation.  For tat reason these enforcement people do exactly that, otherwise they are liable to find education or engagement as a minimum would seriously impact their personal, company and council income.   It also makes managing and supervising much easier by removing the option of discretion.  

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Mac7

It would seem whoever have the powers to fine for littering pick on the easy targets. I cannot stand littering but I’ve never fined anyone for it. I’ve challenged people over it and on every occasion they have picked their litter up and put in a bin. The idea of making a person pick up an additional two pieces doesn’t sit well with me at all.

Many inner city areas are full of litter. Why don’t these wardens patrol these areas and do something about it??

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Sceptre
Quote

(ii) Litter has no actual definition but means 'objects strewn or scattered about or scattered rubbish'. An object is anything that is visible or tangible and is relatively stable in form. It would apply to human/animal faeces, a lump of old engine grease and maybe some congealed sump oil sitting on the surface. There has to be a question mark as to whether it could include urine, but if it settled in a puddle on concrete it may be worth consideration. On 27 September 2013 Thames Magistrates refused to overturn an appeal against PNDs issued to the defendants Khasheem Kiah Thomas and Zilvinus Vitkas for spitting. Litter specifically includes -

(a) the discarded ends of cigarettes, cigars and like products, and
(b) discarded chewing-gum and the discarded remains of other products designed for chewing.

@chaos4122, I recommend signing up for PNLD access at home if you haven't already, it's a very useful resource.

Many civil enforcement officers are not permitted by their employers or the local council to use any discretion, which does make for some fatuous tickets and I think if I was asked to help with a matter which clearly wasn't in the public interest then I'd be inclined to point that out to them. That said, refusing details is a further offence under S88 EPA and is not the honest way of disputing a fine perceived as unfair.

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chaos4122
It would seem whoever have the powers to fine for littering pick on the easy targets. I cannot stand littering but I’ve never fined anyone for it. I’ve challenged people over it and on every occasion they have picked their litter up and put in a bin. The idea of making a person pick up an additional two pieces doesn’t sit well with me at all.

Many inner city areas are full of litter. Why don’t these wardens patrol these areas and do something about it??





Yes agreed... However... If you were called appon to assist an enforcement officer... What would you do...

Would you obtain details of the perpetrator and pass them onto the enforcers... Or would you deal with it yourself using descrtion?

Do police then supersede the litter enforcers decision to try and fine them... As after all a crime has been committed, a summary one at that, and a police officer is now at scene.

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Richhamdo

@Mac7, I agree with you that making someone pick up  litter  not dropped by them  has every possibility for the job to go pear shaped. Like you I have also had many occasions when on foot patrol outside chip chops etc in town to ask people to put their litter in the bin nearby after I have just seen them throw it down,  intending for it to remain there. I have been known to even ask them to do that (in a friendly manner) before they have even finished their “chips”just to try getting the message across.  I always used the utmost discretion when doing this to avoid any embarrassment with their mates.I found out as time went by that this approach was likely to succeed  with everyone going home a happy camper.

Whenever I hear a story or read a letter about littering in a public place my mind is cast back to what went on in Singapore in the seventies/ eighties. I have just been “refreshing my memory” about the problems they had and how they resolved it on the internet , (“Why is littering still a proplem in Singapore”)They still have a bit of a problem apparently but from visitors allegedly who don’t know any better.  They say it’s all about education and perhaps the fact that recidivists test the boundaries because they believe that they can get away with it without being caught.

Whilst a few cherry pips thrown away on the grass verge or a young boy or girl throwing a dried up crust of bread to the local ducks might seem innocuous to most people the fact to consider is where is the line to be drawn? 

 Times have changed now, I am not sure whether or not people still feed the pigeons in Trafalgar Square but I hope not, otherwise they might also get a ticket and plenty of bonus points for the wardens. Rich.

 

 

Edited by Richhamdo
Clarity

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chaos4122
[mention=4652]Mac7[/mention], I agree with you that making someone pick up  litter  not dropped by them  has every possibility for the job to go pear shaped.

 

 

In what way would it go pear shaped?

It's the same as someone nicking a £5 worth of items in pound land and being detained at scene so deciding to deal with the crime by way of restorative justice... Say sorry, you are now banned from the shop, sign here...

 

If an enforcement officer calls the police due to the crime of littering, I could also deal with the incident by restorative justice... Both victims have to agree normally to a RJ, and as the enforcement officer is not the victim here but rather Regina then that would make things easier.

 

So if the perpetrator of this crime agrees to a RJ of picking up two more bits of litter than he dropped them the justice would be completed as agreed and the crime can be filed as such.. everyone's a winner... Except for the enforcement officer of course.

 

 

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chaos4122
(ii) Litter has no actual definition but means 'objects strewn or scattered about or scattered rubbish'. An object is anything that is visible or tangible and is relatively stable in form. It would apply to human/animal faeces, a lump of old engine grease and maybe some congealed sump oil sitting on the surface. There has to be a question mark as to whether it could include urine, but if it settled in a puddle on concrete it may be worth consideration. On 27 September 2013 Thames Magistrates refused to overturn an appeal against PNDs issued to the defendants Khasheem Kiah Thomas and Zilvinus Vitkas for spitting. Litter specifically includes -

(a) the discarded ends of cigarettes, cigars and like products, and

(b) discarded chewing-gum and the discarded remains of other products designed for chewing.

[mention=2804]chaos4122[/mention], I recommend signing up for PNLD access at home if you haven't already, it's a very useful resource.

Many civil enforcement officers are not permitted by their employers or the local council to use any discretion, which does make for some fatuous tickets and I think if I was asked to help with a matter which clearly wasn't in the public interest then I'd be inclined to point that out to them. That said, refusing details is a further offence under S88 EPA and is not the honest way of disputing a fine perceived as unfair.

 

 

Very interesting...

 

Apart from PACE code G giving you the criteria to arrest if the perpetrator declines to give an officer name and address for a fixed wizzer for littering...

 

I can't seem to find it in sec88 EPA were it says it's an offence not to provide name and address for the enforcement officer...

 

But my senario still stands, if they failed to give name and address normally what happeneds is the enforcement officer asks for police... You turn up, how do you deal, use discretion?

 

 

 

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Sceptre

That's such a derisory resolution that it's barely worth the paperwork, and I suspect anyone reviewing it after the fact (when the council inevitably complain) will probably conclude that you were taking the mickey. Someone will probably also raise the topic of health and safety - the council collect litter wearing aramid gloves and using litter pickers but you're asking someone to do it with their bare hands, where's your risk assessment for that? 

The local authority are the primacy enforcing authority for litter, I can't see any need for us to be taking it off their hands without a good reason or further offences.

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chaos4122
That's such a derisory resolution that it's barely worth the paperwork, and I suspect anyone reviewing it after the fact (when the council inevitably complain) will probably conclude that you were taking the mickey. Someone will probably also raise the topic of health and safety - the council collect litter wearing aramid gloves and using litter pickers but you're asking someone to do it with their bare hands, where's your risk assessment for that? 

The local authority are the primacy enforcing authority for litter, I can't see any need for us to be taking it off their hands without a good reason or further offences.

 

Health and safety gone mad.... They can wear 2 pairs of my hospital gloves... And the council may complain... But if the enforcement officer wants to call to police to deal with a criminal offence of littering then a constable should be able to deal with that crime as they see fit...

 

If the perpetrator doesn't want to pick up a coke can and a empty packet of crisps then he can have the fine... I know what I would do...

 

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Mac7



Yes agreed... However... If you were called appon to assist an enforcement officer... What would you do...

Would you obtain details of the perpetrator and pass them onto the enforcers... Or would you deal with it yourself using descrtion?

Do police then supersede the litter enforcers decision to try and fine them... As after all a crime has been committed, a summary one at that, and a police officer is now at scene.


I would like to think that the control room would not send cops out to assist an enforcement officer unless things have gone pair shaped.

I would let the enforcement officer decide on what he/she wants to do, as I personally do not feel that Street littering is worth the police being involved in (unless it occurs know front of me). I certainly would not be taking the lead on dealing with it. My role would be to ensure a BOP doesn’t happen. If the enforcement officer wants to ticket them, so be it. If they want to use discretion, so be it.

I don’t agree with “picking up additional litter” because to me it looks like public humiliation. A cop stood over an MOP while they pick up litter? No thanks. I’ve been in the presence of other officers who have made people do it and I found it very uncomfortable.

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Sceptre

The refusing details offence is S88(8B).

The council have primacy for litter enforcement, and they won't be calling the police to deal with it but simply to facilitate their enforcement through the use of police powers where necessary. Ultimately that could lead to an arrest, in practice that really isn't a good use of anyone's time or money if it can be resolved any other way and given the overzealous reputation some councils have acquired I think I'd come into the job with an open mind about what if anything I was going to do, but if enforcement is merited then the most appropriate thing to do is furnish the council with the information they need to take it forwards.

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chaos4122


I would like to think that the control room would not send cops out to assist an enforcement officer unless things have gone pair shaped.

I would let the enforcement officer decide on what he/she wants to do, as I personally do not feel that Street littering is worth the police being involved in (unless it occurs know front of me). I certainly would not be taking the lead on dealing with it. My role would be to ensure a BOP doesn’t happen. If the enforcement officer wants to ticket them, so be it. If they want to use discretion, so be it.

I don’t agree with “picking up additional litter” because to me it looks like public humiliation. A cop stood over an MOP while they pick up litter? No thanks. I’ve been in the presence of other officers who have made people do it and I found it very uncomfortable.



Ok prohaps not picking up litter then as a way or RJ,. But you have still been called to a summary crime... An enforcement officer is telling you that the male perpetrator has been seen to drop little and is now refusing to provide name and address for the fine...

Are you saying you are just going to stand there to prevent a bop... that's all very well and good but what if the male starts to walk away? Certainly no bop their then...

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