Met police firearms

[Techie1 + 2,024]

Labour says visibility has rarely been lower and 'blame lies squarely at the government's door'.

The number of people who believe police are "highly visible" in their community has fallen by almost half, statistics show.

Just one in five (22 per cent) people said they feel officers are highly visible, according to the latest Crime Survey for England and Wales, which looks at the period from April last year to March this year.

This compared with 39 per cent in April 2010 to March 2011, while the percentage of the public who said they "never" see police foot patrols has risen by more than half, from 25 per cent to 39 per cent.

It follows a survey last year, which found that one in three people in England and Wales has not seen a bobby on the beat in their local area in the past year.

The poll carried out for HMIC found 36 per cent of people had not seen a police officer or PCSO on foot in their areas in the past year - while just under a quarter (23 per cent) had seen uniformed personnel "once or twice".

The watchdog warned of the "erosion" of neighbourhood policing as forces are forced to make further financial cuts.

Labour's Shadow Policing Minister Louise Haigh said: "Bobbies on the beat don't just reassure the public they collect vital community intelligence and help to keep us safe. Savage cuts mean this tried and tested bedrock of British policing is being chipped away as police withdraw from neighbourhood policing altogether.

"Police visibility has rarely been lower and the blame lies squarely at the Government's door.

"The Tories shamefully accused the police of crying wolf over police cuts, but now the public are seeing the brutal reality; crime rising and fewer officers on hand to keep them safe."

A Home Office spokeswoman said: "Effective policing is not just about the number of officers on the street but about accessibility - having a presence where people now live their lives and are at risk, for example online.

"The latest data from the independent Crime Survey for England and Wales shows that nearly two-thirds of the public believe that the police are doing a good or excellent job, and we encourage forces to be innovative, including making best use of technology in the way in which they engage so they meet the needs of all sectors of the community."

Last month a number of anonymous former senior Met officers stressed the importance of Safer Neighbourhood Teams, the force’s “eyes and ears” on the ground.

The officers claim the teams have been key to detecting signs of radicalisation and gang-related activity in the past.

They explained that in 2007 every ward in every London borough boasted a team made up of a sergeant, two police constables and three community support officers.

Now there are just three officers in each team, with each unit covering three or four wards.

View on Police Oracle 

[Cathedral Bobby + 1,174]

The police cannot do everything, time has come for Local Authorities to step up and appoint constables under Section 77 of the Public Health Amendments Act 1907. They can uphold local by-laws, deal with ASB, and minor crime in their authority areas. Much better use of high visibility foot patrols than LA wardens and ASB officers. Freeing the police to deal with more serious crime and disorder.

[Radman + 2,163]

I think we need to have a serious discussion on just what we expect from the police in Britain...

As a BTP Response cop I am expected to be visible, the railways pay the force, they demand that our officers routinely conduct foot patrol, liaise with staff/passengers and overall ensure crimes are stopped before they happen or nipped in the bud before they become something more serious - we are directly accountable to our industry and this rightly in my opinion dictates what we do on a daily basis. I have the time to do these things aswell because my remit is specialised and small, I'm not being sent from one job to the next or constantly caught up with safe-guarding issues as my county force colleagues are. I also am lucky in that I have the time to properly investigate things, even the more low level stuff that in this day and age the Home Office would either ignore or pay lip-service to because they are far too busy... EVERYTHING just gets piled on top of the county police with an expectation that these little niche areas of crime will be dealt with along with everything else.

We need to start looking at fresh, new, approaches, we need to start looking 'outside of the box' and in my opinion push or atleast 'ask' the local authorities around us to step up to the plate and start taking on more responsibility in protecting our communities - they have a duty in law to do this too.

Would we have the massive disconnect within our society if there were local bobbies on the beat? Highly visible patrolling our towns and cities? I don't think we would, I think members of public would see us as a force for good who dealt with more than just crime, whizzing from one job to the next... Someone on the street who can help with directions or help a motorist change a tyre... Someone on call when needed.

PCSO's were meant to be this stop gap but they're largely a failed experiment (thanks largely in my opinion) due to an unwillingness amongst county forces to use them appropriately or even competently - it annoys me that my tax pays for officers earning far more than a probationer in my local county force who isn't trained to take statements let alone report on summons for minor offences... Why do we tolerate that waste of money when we all know there is a viable alternative in way we in BTP use our PCSO's? Why has this issue been overlooked for 10+ years now? Why is it tolerated?

Port of Dover another one of my 'go to' forces is incredibly successful and cost effective - it is entirely privately funded yet provides one of the key policing services to one of our busiest major ports in the country - it's providing a worthwhile public service that doesn't actually cost the tax payer anything.

 

Edited August 18, 2017 by Radman

[Cathedral Bobby + 1,174]

38 minutes ago, Radman said:

I think we need to have a serious discussion on just what we expect from the police in Britain...

As a BTP Response cop I am expected to be visible, the railways pay the force, they demand that our officers routinely conduct foot patrol, liaise with staff/passengers and overall ensure crimes are stopped before they happen or nipped in the bud before they become something more serious - we are directly accountable to our industry and this rightly in my opinion dictates what we do on a daily basis. I have the time to do these things aswell because my remit is specialised and small, I'm not being sent from one job to the next or constantly caught up with safe-guarding issues as my county force colleagues are. I also am lucky in that I have the time to properly investigate things, even the more low level stuff that in this day and age the Home Office would either ignore or pay lip-service to because they are far too busy... EVERYTHING just gets piled on top of the county police with an expectation that these little niche areas of crime will be dealt with along with everything else.

We need to start looking at fresh, new, approaches, we need to start looking 'outside of the box' and in my opinion push or atleast 'ask' the local authorities around us to step up to the plate and start taking on more responsibility in protecting our communities - they have a duty in law to do this too.

Would we have the massive disconnect within our society if there were local bobbies on the beat? Highly visible patrolling our towns and cities? I don't think we would, I think members of public would see us as a force for good who dealt with more than just crime, whizzing from one job to the next... Someone on the street who can help with directions or help a motorist change a tyre... Someone on call when needed.

PCSO's were meant to be this stop gap but they're largely a failed experiment (thanks largely in my opinion) due to an unwillingness amongst county forces to use them appropriately or even competently - it annoys me that my tax pays for officers earning far more than a probationer in my local county force who isn't trained to take statements let alone report on summons for minor offences... Why do we tolerate that waste of money when we all know there is a viable alternative in way we in BTP use our PCSO's? Why has this issue been overlooked for 10+ years now? Why is it tolerated?

Port of Dover another one of my 'go to' forces is incredibly successful and cost effective - it is entirely privately funded yet provides one of the key policing services to one of our busiest major ports in the country - it's providing a worthwhile public service that doesn't actually cost the tax payer anything.

 

Spot on Radman. I know some excellent PCSOs but they are not fully utilised. Add in the LA wardens/parking wardens/ASB officers and we have a massive under utilised body of individuals, who with a bit more training, could make a real difference. We don't need chocolate fireguards, we need the real thing with a jurisdiction that meets the publics and the police's needs. They don't need patrol vehicles, they need good shoe leather. They don't need massive investigate powers and training, if it is serious enough to warrant a real investigation then it is a police job. If it is simple ASB/shop theft/trespass/minor public order (S4, 4(a), 5, D&D, BofP), minor criminal damage, parking and minor traffic, and a whole plethora of by-laws etc, let them lock up or report and be done. Out else belongs to the territorial force. They can attend as many fetes, NHW, schools as they please, so long as they walk and are highly visible.

Edited August 18, 2017 by Cathedral Bobby
grammar

[SimonT + 1,185]

As above, you can't have your highly visible officers if they are part of the mainstream police. There is always a job with a higher priority to patrol. 

At the moment neighbourhood backs up response who back up investigations who go off sick and hate their job. 

You need dedicated, isolated and non deployable officers. We have nothing near enough money or staff to pretend to do that. 

[Cathedral Bobby + 1,174]

14 minutes ago, SimonT said:

As above, you can't have your highly visible officers if they are part of the mainstream police. There is always a job with a higher priority to patrol. 

At the moment neighbourhood backs up response who back up investigations who go off sick and hate their job. 

You need dedicated, isolated and non deployable officers. We have nothing near enough money or staff to pretend to do that. 

You're right SimonT, there are those who think no one should police other than HO territorial forces, although that view is somewhat diminished. Taking some of pressures off, and providing the HO force officers with valuable intelligence from within communities does not always have to come from within HO force resources. Policing is changing as society is changing and we need to develop and adopt methods and models that will deliver good outcomes for the public. When I was HO force officer I had a lot of suspicion about the smaller specialist and private forces. Much to do with the view of the PolFed that maintained a water tight embargo on policing. Since spending my time on the other side of the fence, but still very much part of the policing family, I see things a little differently. My officers are able to provide a level of service to cathedrals the territorial police officers can never and, probably never would want to do. But also being able to say to local police commanders don't worry we have this covered at a time of immense pressure on resources, makes a difference to the wider community, freeing up officers to do what they are skilled and trained to do. Better they look after their community than spend hours loitering around a cathedral looking after a third tier royal/dignitary or local Judiciary at their annual service.

[Radman + 2,163]

My personal opinion on this is that LAs are spending huge amounts of money on wardens/officers which effectively dont amount to much at all - powers exist in statute for them to get more bang for their buck via appointing their own constables for byelaw enforcement (which can cover more or less anything criminally) this would actually have a decent impact on day to day crime prevention/policing - targetting areas of crime/enforcement that the county/HO forces have left behind due to expansion of scope, responsibilities and ultimately safe guarding duties to victims/witnesses - for better or worse.

As I said above PCSOs are under-used, poorly equipped both from a PPE sense and training/power sense. This is frankly before we even address their standing with the public which if we are being honest isn't at all good - I think we need to start seeing an expanded use of these powers and start trusting authorities with doing things properly - rather than lumping everything with the HO which again as above simply doesn't get policed as well as it probably should.

[Cathedral Bobby + 1,174]

Think of the jobs that response officers wouldn't need to waste their time attending because LA constables are allocated

Youths causing a nuisance at the shops, the bus stops, on street corners and in the parks

Minor criminal damage and graffiti

Shop lifting and minor theft

The homeless, begging and drunks causing a nuisance

People urinating

Problem pets

Neighbour disputes

Public drinking

Public Order S4, S4a, 5

School visits

Fetes and public celebrations

Traffic control

Parish Council liaison

Children truanting

Looked after children absconding

Minor assault and battery

Fixed penalty enforcements

Trespassing

Crime prevention and NHW

Underage drinking

Nuisance children

[Cathedral Bobby + 1,174]

I also think this gives an alternative career path for officers who are not suited to the hard nosed end of policing, or for officers towards the end of their career who don't want to do response policing. Saves retiring and then going off and getting paid minimum wage for some security work.

[Beaker 817]

My personal opinion on this is that LAs are spending huge amounts of money on wardens/officers which effectively dont amount to much at all - powers exist in statute for them to get more bang for their buck via appointing their own constables for byelaw enforcement (which can cover more or less anything criminally) this would actually have a decent impact on day to day crime prevention/policing - targetting areas of crime/enforcement that the county/HO forces have left behind due to expansion of scope, responsibilities and ultimately safe guarding duties to victims/witnesses - for better or worse.
As I said above PCSOs are under-used, poorly equipped both from a PPE sense and training/power sense. This is frankly before we even address their standing with the public which if we are being honest isn't at all good - I think we need to start seeing an expanded use of these powers and start trusting authorities with doing things properly - rather than lumping everything with the HO which again as above simply doesn't get policed as well as it probably should.

Talking to an Old Fart recently in his 80s/90s and he bemoans the absorption of the old Town Police for this type of thing. I see his point, and partially agree with him about it, but all all I see would happen is less funding for existing forces as they have "less to do".

[Cathedral Bobby + 1,174]

4 minutes ago, Beaker said:

Talking to an Old Fart recently in his 80s/90s and he bemoans the absorption of the old Town Police for this type of thing. I see his point, and partially agree with him about it, but all all I see would happen is less funding for existing forces as they have "less to do".

I really don't think it has to. It would allow the police to do what they should be doing properly (much of the stuff listed doesn't get done because there is neither will or resource) and it better employs the local authority wardens et al. The police can then concentrate on more serious crime and disorder and the public get an answer to their local concerns. No major changes in resources other than some up-skilling for LA staff who become constables. Genuine partnership between the police and LAs.

[Radman + 2,163]

34 minutes ago, Beaker said:

Talking to an Old Fart recently in his 80s/90s and he bemoans the absorption of the old Town Police for this type of thing. I see his point, and partially agree with him about it, but all all I see would happen is less funding for existing forces as they have "less to do".

I think its hard for newer HO cops to get their heads around the disconntect between the police and the society around them, some forces (usually the smaller county ones) are better at keeping tabs on the 'low level' stuff but the larger forces are absent from the streets unless responding to an incident or conducting an operation.

Ultimately what do you think annoys people on a frequent basis within their towns and cities? The low level stuff that is frequently ignored tends to be one of the biggest impactive areas of crime and area perception.

 I will openly admit to having a very different relationship towards the staff on my station then HO cops would have with their local community - I interact with them daily and we all know each other on a first name basis... They report things to me that ordinarily wouldnt get reported. 

We tend to discuss centralisation and mergers alot on here, frankly for some reasons this would be good, far cheaper in scope for a start but smaller communities suffer in the long run because inevitably resources are taken away from these locations to back fill larger problem areas. I always laugh at the very Home Office concept of "Week of action" because sure hitting a problem site may work for the time you're there but once the cops move onto the next flavour of the month the disorder always persists afterwards. One of the worst things to happen in my opinion was the removal of LA to maintain policing within their districts-  centralisation towards the HO has meant largely police dance to the tune of central government rather than the issues impacting on its local community.

PCSOs were intended to fill this role as said previously but its been largely a failed experiment (BTP is one of the only forces to utilise them fully which does prove to be effective.)

I think Councils need to step up to the mark to solve some of these local issues.

Edited August 19, 2017 by Radman

[Beaker 817]

I think the old town forces probably did manage to keep a lid on a lot of things, but I remember my grandfather's description of the small fiefdoms that happened as a result. Refusal to engage with county forces, arguments over jurisdiction etc.

If they did push LAs to deal with things that currently fall under HO forces the HO would likely cut budgets further, because on the face of it they would have less to do. In reality we know what we would do is be just as busy, but able to deal with things better.

[Cathedral Bobby + 1,174]

During my time as a special I spent six years as the parish constable of a larger village. I was given the freedom to develop relationships and my own schemes. One of the most popular schemes I did related to vulnerable people, mainly the elderly and disabled. Family members or professionals could let me know about relatives/clients who they would like to receive a visit. During my patrols (two or three each week) I would visit the VP, sometimes a five minute chat, sometimes a cuppa, but mostly a knock on the window and a friend wave or nod. I had about 40 VPs identified and by patrolling this way I visited every road in the village and each VP. The response was excellent, people not associated with the scheme saw me very regularly and the plaudits were many. What it did was give structure to my high visibility patrols and the community got what they thought was value added policing.

Now no regular officer would have the time or possibly the inclination to do such a task but in a large leafy village it met a policing need. We don't have the resources to do what I did, but with LA constables working at a different level but with the same overall local safer communities objectives, then why not.

The community as a thank you to the police did a fund raising event to purchase and install a repeater radio transmitter and equipped an office in the local post office. This meant I did not need to take a car to act as a repeater transmitter, my equipment, radio and uniform we all in the village so I didn't waste time going to the nick. And when I finally left the police the village the police had a radio transmitter which was very helpful in a previously poor signalling area.

[Radman + 2,163]

16 minutes ago, Beaker said:

I think the old town forces probably did manage to keep a lid on a lot of things, but I remember my grandfather's description of the small fiefdoms that happened as a result. Refusal to engage with county forces, arguments over jurisdiction etc.

If they did push LAs to deal with things that currently fall under HO forces the HO would likely cut budgets further, because on the face of it they would have less to do. In reality we know what we would do is be just as busy, but able to deal with things better.

I dont think they would, the HO for the large part isnt dealing with these matters - we have entire areas of crime that ends up not being investigated simply down to resourcing or an attitude of "it isn't in my remit to deal with this."

You look at the continent most nations have a national police that deal with 'real' crime accountable to the central government and smaller municipal forces hired by the local mayors or city councils that deal with ordinances, traffic matters etc.

This model works the world over - I dont see why this wouldnt work in the UK.

Specialisation is whats missing from British policing as the first thing that gets cut from HO forces is your divisions extended away from core policing.

 

Rural and Wildlife Crime.

Local Beat Enforcement 

Traffic Units

Search Teams

 

The list goes on.

Have a Local Authority Managed team accountable to the local community (which the HO isnt at the moment) capable of enforcing matters such as:

Byelaws

Obstructions

ASB issues

Littering/Flytipping

I actually dont see a problem with the concept of 'little empires' either - caring about your particular patch or slice of the pie means you're willing to invest time and effort in tackling the issues that plague it.

 

Edited August 19, 2017 by Radman