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chaos4122

Witness suspect.

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chaos4122

You attend and incident and a male is for an affrey in the street.

 

During Enquires you speak to another male involved who provides you with a statement and how he was the victim in the matter.

 

Further enquiries including CCTV comes to light after the statement has been taken that shows this witness and being just as culpable in the affrey and even shows him carrying a knife. The male had lied in his statement has he has played down his role to make himself sound like a victim.

 

What do you do? Is that signed statement you have taken his evidence, his interview?

 

Is he now a suspect and you disregard the statement?

 

Or he's a suspect and you use the statement as evidence against him?

 

Do you arrest the male? Or VA?

 

If VA, haven't you already interviewed him and got his account on paper?

 

 

 

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Sherlock

Statement from a victim of affray? That's a new one ^_^.

Ok - so he lied in his statement to make himself sound like a victim, not to put the blame on someone else? Did he name anyone in his statement or was it a statement made that just vindicating him from being a perpetrator? If the latter, VA and PND for wasting police time where applicable. I'd consider arrest depending on the situation - it may require P&E at police station and prevent injury harm to others.

If the statement is made maliciously and aimed at getting someone else in trouble with names being provided and it being false then I'd be considering perverting the course of justice route.

Don't discard his signed statement. That is evidence either way. It would be a pointless day out in court that's for sure.

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Indiana Jones
1 hour ago, chaos4122 said:

What do you do? Is that signed statement you have taken his evidence, his interview?

Is he now a suspect and you disregard the statement?

Or he's a suspect and you use the statement as evidence against him?

Do you arrest the male? Or VA?

If VA, haven't you already interviewed him and got his account on paper?

His statement is worthy of being kept. It's not evidence of his involvement in the affray, but it could be evidence of his lack of truthfulness previously.

He's now a suspect in an offence of affray and carrying the knife - previoulsly he was a witness to an offence ('victim' to an extent). He needs to be interviewed, under caution, with all the safeguards that PACE gives a suspect. You won't be able to proceed with anything based on his having given a statement as a witness/victim.

You could arrest or VA him depending on policy / custody / need.

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DB11

If it's going to be NFA based on the evidence then use his  statement as his account as it's not going to change if he gives a verbal account on interview, it's just going to be a waste of time.

 

This is what often happens in counter allegations - the person dealt with as a suspect first you use their account as what was said on interview and then the person who was dealt with as victim and provided a written statement is their account for the counter allegation.

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chaos4122

There is very clear mobile phone footage of the whole incident that shows the witness commiting offences and also the male who made off.

The witness have identified the male who made off and has admitted getting a knife from the kitchen but only for self defence...

The footage shows that the witness had the knife from the start and it was not for self defences....

My thoughts if it that he needs arresting for P&E, so searches can be done for this knife, prevent loss to property of the knife is located, prohaps bail conditions to keep away from the other male.

A VA for me just won't cut it.

But could you put the statement to him in interview saying, "well I. Your statement you said this" ?

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chaos4122

There is very clear mobile phone footage of the whole incident that shows the witness commiting offences and also the male who made off.

The witness have identified the male who made off and has admitted getting a knife from the kitchen but only for self defence...

The footage shows that the witness had the knife from the start and it was not for self defences....

My thoughts if it that he needs arresting for P&E, so searches can be done for this knife, prevent loss to property of the knife is located, prohaps bail conditions to keep away from the other male.

A VA for me just won't cut it.

But could you put the statement to him in interview saying, "well I. Your statement you said this" ?

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Mac7

First of all this is my first post in this forum. I used to be a member of police forums prior to joining the police nearly 10 years ago. They were a valuable source of information.

Chaos 4122 - I assume you are not in the job? Otherwise I am baffled as to why you would ask such a question and not know the answer. You may be surprised to hear that people lie to us, especially when they are suspected of being involved in an offence.

But to answer your question. Yes, you would arrest. He has been involved in a violent incident with a weapon. You Would need to search for weapons, clothing and anything else that has been seen on CCTV/mobile phone footage.

His statement is proof that he has lied and would be used as evidence against him.

Disregard his statement - hardly CPIA compliant.

Apologies for being blunt but seems a strange "scenario" to ask.

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Sceptre

For clarity let's say you've got Mr S who was arrested at the time and Mr W who gave a statement claiming to be a witness but is now thought on receipt of new evidence to have committed offences himself.

@Mac7, I don't think it's a strange scenario at all but one which anyone who investigates will have to contend with at one time or another. Forums thrive on debate and chaos has posted a number of scenarios which have generated good debate. For what it's worth I disagree with your advice about discarding the statement anyway, it's clearly an account which affects his credibility. 

I'm coming down on the side of arresting Mr W with the necessity being effective investigation by means of searches and identification; you want to find the clothes he was wearing at the time he was captured on CCTV in case he denies it was him and hopefully the knife. If Mr S is still in custody then clearly this must be done promptly as you're using up his clock and what happens to him will depend on whether Mr W's evidence is a pack of lies or not. 

With regards to the statement, you cannot use it in evidence directly as it wasn't made under caution or with reference to legal advice, but when you come to interview him you can give a copy to his brief in disclosure and then read through it at the start of the interview exactly as you would with a significant statement and ask him if he stands by it as a truthful account. He either says no and drops himself in it, makes no comment which is effectively the same thing or says yes and gives you the rope to hang him with when you start putting the new evidence to him. He'll probably no comment given he knows he's lied and knows you know it because you've locked him up, which suits you as a no comment interview can under certain circumstances be considered a GAP file. If the two of them have only been having a go at each other then proving the hypothetical reasonable man would fear for themselves might be hard and realistically you might be looking at charging S4 and offensive weapons anyway, and maybe pervert the course of justice if it can be proven the statement contains outright lies. 

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Mac7

When I say strange scenario I meant in the context of a serving officer posting the question and not knowing the answer.

I agree sceptre that it is very common during the course of an incident or investigation the number or suspects change or various parties involvement can change.

I also value forums like this and I have no doubt that they helped me get into the job. But I appreciate decent scenarios that can encourage debate and get the mind working. I just don't believe this was in that.

Anyway, I hope to regularly contribute but do not mean any offence to Chaos or others.

P.s - when I say disregard, I mean you could not disregard the statement as it forums part of the file of evidence, plus it's a proveable lie. Plus you cannot disregard the statement as it would not comply with CPIA.

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chaos4122
When I say strange scenario I meant in the context of a serving officer posting the question and not knowing the answer.

 

I agree sceptre that it is very common during the course of an incident or investigation the number or suspects change or various parties involvement can change.

 

I also value forums like this and I have no doubt that they helped me get into the job. But I appreciate decent scenarios that can encourage debate and get the mind working. I just don't believe this was in that.

 

Anyway, I hope to regularly contribute but do not mean any offence to Chaos or others.

 

P.s - when I say disregard, I mean you could not disregard the statement as it forums part of the file of evidence, plus it's a proveable lie. Plus you cannot disregard the statement as it would not comply with CPIA.

 

Mac7, welcome to the debate....

 

Yes I am a serving officer, and you assume that I don't know the answer...

 

There is a right way of doing things, the wrong way... And then their is the grey area that people like to debate on...

 

It interests me when I'm dealing with jobs and i ask people what their way of investigating and dealing with incidents are ... Sometimes I would post senarios on here to get a different option.

 

After getting the new video evidence I was in the mind of arresting the male who went out in the street with the knife, even if it was to defend himself as he did lie in the statement and there was other options he could have done like going inside, locking the door and calling the police. After his arrest at him home, conduct a 32 search for the knife.

 

When discussing this incident with my team mates, My supervision suggested to go round and mealy ask the male for the knife, saying to him "we have mobile footage" and still treat him as a witness and seize and exibits the knife as the males..... If he refused then arrest and continue as normal.

 

However.... Update... The male who came out in the street had been arrested, knife seized and interviews... He was subsequently No further action by CPS quoting case law that having a knife in the street for safe defence could be seen as reasonable due to the circumstances.

 

The young male that he was defending himself against was chanted with offences weapon X 2, common assault, and section 4 public order...

 

The affrey side of things was also NFA as the violance was targeted and as such that reasonable 3rd person would not have been put in fear.

 

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Mac7

Do the CPS ever charge Affray? I cannot recall anyone ever being charged with it.

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chaos4122
Do the CPS ever charge Affray? I cannot recall anyone ever being charged with it.



Very true... Arrest high, charge low

I just don't see that going out in the street with a knife can be seen as reasonable when there are alternative options the male would have done to protect himself.... Oh well the mind boggles.... 🤔

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SD
On 30/06/2017 at 22:37, Mac7 said:

Do the CPS ever charge Affray? I cannot recall anyone ever being charged with it.

  No, which is why I always lock up for S4 POA. Means I can police charge and not have to faff around with CPS to get the same result anyway!

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chaos4122
  No, which is why I always lock up for S4 POA. Means I can police charge and not have to faff around with CPS to get the same result anyway!



True... But can you have a section 4 poa if the victim of said fear and provocation of violence didn't want to make a complaint. And is it a fine line between section 4 and Breach the Peace.

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SD

Offence is still complete without a witness statement and as has been said before CPS usually goes for that as a charge anyway. Also tends to be happening as police rock up anyway so my statement is enough. Of course there are occasions where it doesn't fit but for the majority of jobs I deal with it's fine.

Yes there's a fine line between BoP and s4 but the so can common assault. 

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