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H-H

Direct/Graduate Entry

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H-H

Been giving an old family friend some advice on joining the Specials this evening and he's told me he's looking to use it for work experience for when he applies for direct entry at Insp level. I asked him why he was looking to do that and he's said that he's looking to get as high up the ladder as he can and it seems like a good place to start

 

I can imagine there's some ill feeling with this from serving cops because of the lack of experience/success over candidates who have worked hard from entry level to achieve the same goal

 

Realistically are candidates for these schemes frowned upon? Is there anyone at PC/PS level who looks on these schemes favourably?

 

I've never liked the idea of going for it myself - more responsibility and less fun in my youth, but I can see the appeal from a potential candidate's point of view

 

 

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sc117

I suppose the fact he is trying to join the specials to get an insight at least shows he has the right intentions of seeing firsthand what the job is like on the front line. Personally, there are some  issues that I have with the direct entry scheme (issues that have been flagged up numerous times by others) and one of those is that there is no prerequisite requirement to have at least served in the special constabulary beforehand. At the moment we are stuck with the scheme nationwide so at least we have one person applying with sensible intentions of getting some practical experience beforehand.

Personally I have always preferred the High Potential Development Scheme and PC to Inspector Fast Track to the direct entry because even though there are also potential issues with those schemes as well, at least the candidate has to work up through all the ranks (albeit very quickly) and gets an insight into front line policing.

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Prae

Realistically are candidates for these schemes frowned upon? Is there anyone at PC/PS level who looks on these schemes favourably?
 
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Honestly? Yes of course you'd be respected less than someone who has done the same job as the people in the ranks below them. It will follow you around for your whole career and every mistake will be blamed on the fact you're a direct entry wally.

Will people overtly be insubordinate to you? Probably not as we've all got bills to pay but there are the vocal minority who won't care.

I have a friend going through it at the minute, she's been a PC for a year and is now wearing pips and taking home an Inspector's wage whilst still being shown the ropes out and about by a PC tutor, she isn't allowed to do anything that an Inspector can and due to the number of courses she's been on she hasn't even achieved that basic level of competence that a normal PC with the same level of service has.

Nobody understands why she's doing what she is, herself included. Why are they paying her an Inspector's wage to do a PC's job? The whole thing is a shambles according to her but at the end of the day she's getting paid £20k more than me and has 18 months less service so whose the idiot?

Ultimately if you want to get ahead fast and don't mind your colleagues having minimal respect for you then I'd go for it.
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Reasonable Man

Respect should be earned not just given. Some people will be prejudiced against direct entry colleagues like some are prejudiced against accelerated promotion officers and women who get to higher ranks.
I've known people who have joined the traditional way who spent the mandatory couple of years on patrol then 8 or 10 years in a back office and on a project before emerging with a couple of pips.
I would have respect for someone who showed good leadership skills but recognised his/her shortcomings so sought the advice of the experienced people around him/her.


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H-H

Do agree with all the points made above


I would have respect for someone who showed good leadership skills but recognised his/her shortcomings so sought the advice of the experienced people around him/her.


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Hit the nail on the head there I think, I guess it's just a case of treading a fine line between coming across as arrogant and relying on everyone around you to do your job for you. Not impossible to earn respect but you'd certainly start at a disadvantage compared to someone with experience who'd been promoted from PS


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Ironic

I would never be happy to enter as a direct-entry anything, aside from the bottom as a PC. Perhaps my opinion would change if I had a family to win bread for?

To answer your question, most of the people i have ever spoken to in regards to 'respect' for direct entry/graduate ranking officers do not hold them in much regard. I don't know about my colleagues, however.

I am sure they can still do a job property, the issue is the lack of experience that for example, a comparable 10 years + inspector might be able to rely on to make sound and calculated decisions in the operational theatre. 

Is it a cost-cutting measure? or efficiency?  - I believe that operational managing officers should be promoted from within the ranks rather than brought in externally, whether it saves them a few quid or not. I would not be happy having to make hard decisions without having seen it for myself first.

Edited by Ironic

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Growley

The thing I've never understood is why people want to go for a higher direct entry rank.

You're not doing all the interesting things people traditionally join the Police to do, and if it's for the extra money there are better options out there; many which won't lead to you gripping the rail over an order you gave 8 years prior.

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XA84

I have to agree with the above comments, I personally would never want to go in above people as you don't get to learn your bread and butter as it were. Don't get me wrong I understand that people are ambitious but the fact that there was a possibility that I wouldn't be respected by my colleagues would massively play on my mind. 

When I become a police officer I want to go to the worst neighbourhood possible in order for me to learn faster and get straight into the thick of it so when it does come round to sergeants promotion I will have the experience I need. 

I do know of somebody that did the higher direct entry and they absolutely hated it because they didn't feel as though they were respected and they actually quit the force because of it. 

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Milankovitch
On 11/04/2017 at 22:08, sc117 said:

Personally, there are some  issues that I have with the direct entry scheme (issues that have been flagged up numerous times by others) and one of those is that there is no prerequisite requirement to have at least served in the special constabulary beforehand. At the moment we are stuck with the scheme nationwide so at least we have one person applying with sensible intentions of getting some practical experience beforehand.

I don't think being a Special beforehand really solves the issue you mention. You get a very narrow view of policing and don't have to worry about a lot of the things that really annoy regulars like cancelled rest days, getting OT paid out, trying to get A/L and so on that line managers can spend a lot of time having to try and deal with. Couple that with the fact that a lot of specials will never do half as much of the back office stuff as a regular will (and I know some will before somebody jumps down my throat...) and I really don't think it is as useful as you make it out to be.

39 minutes ago, XA84 said:

When I become a police officer I want to go to the worst neighbourhood possible in order for me to learn faster and get straight into the thick of it so when it does come round to sergeants promotion I will have the experience I need.

If only it were that simple... There are loads of cops nationally qualified for promotion and not nearly as many posts to be promoted into as there used to be. There will be plenty of cops with far more experience than you and some who are I dare say more rounded having worked across numerous different areas and roles. Just working in a rubbish area isn't likely to be a successful strategy. 

 

Anyway, what do experience and aptitude have to do with promotion prospects in the police? ;)

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XA84
8 minutes ago, Milankovitch said:

If only it were that simple... There are loads of cops nationally qualified for promotion and not nearly as many posts to be promoted into as there used to be. There will be plenty of cops with far more experience than you and some who are I dare say more rounded having worked across numerous different areas and roles. Just working in a rubbish area isn't likely to be a successful strategy. 

 

Oh I know it's not nearly that simple :lol:

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Policey_Man
5 hours ago, Milankovitch said:

Anyway, what do experience and aptitude have to do with promotion prospects in the police? ;)

Nothing these days, apparently...

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adamwales

I think the police is moving on with the times. In the military, for example, one can enter as an other rank (and it is possible to promote to senior officer ranks from here over a 30yr plus career) or as an officer.

There's always a little bit of 'them and us' between OR and commissioned officers, however its recognition that a team is comprised of a variety of people with different skills, abilities and... experience...

You don't need to do X years as a PC and X years as a PS, because it's not just experience that makes a good leader, but also certain skills and abilities.


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adamwales

I think the police is moving on with the times. In the military, for example, one can enter as an other rank (and it is possible to promote to senior officer ranks from here over a 30yr plus career) or as an officer.

There's always a little bit of 'them and us' between OR and commissioned officers, however its recognition that a team is comprised of a variety of people with different skills, abilities and... experience...

You don't need to do X years as a PC and X years as a PS, because it's not just experience that makes a good leader, but also certain skills and abilities.


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H-H


You don't need to do X years as a PC and X years as a PS, because it's not just experience that makes a good leader, but also certain skills and abilities.


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Yeah I agree that the promotion should be earned on merit rather than length of service, although I do agree with other people that field experience helps, as you get an insight into the role that your operational decisions will affect.

I guess whether it's right or wrong, there will always be people who will see 21 year olds fresh out of uni coming straight into the role they've been working towards for years.



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Cathedral Bobby

Command is command, but for commissioned ranks in the forces you have to work through all of the commissioned ranks spending significant time for the first couple of years as a foot soldier, leading a team before promotion. The police has only one NCO rank, that of sergeant whereas the forces have four or five. The forces wouldn't recruit straight to major or brigadier ranks. That's what is happening with the police. There will be people with very little experience of what the realities of the job is out on the streets making major decisions. That couldn't happen in the forces. It worries me.

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