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obsidian_eclipse

Private 'Police Force' to set up business in wealthy London neighbourhood

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obsidian_eclipse

http://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/londons-wealthiest-neighbourhoods-set-to-have-own-private-police-force-a3482541.html

 

Three of London’s wealthiest neighbourhoods are set to benefit from their own private police force.

 

Former Metropolitan police detectives Tony Nash and David McKelvey will next month launch a private agency to police the streets of Knightsbridge, Belgravia and Mayfair, The Sunday Times has reported.[/Quote]

 

It's very interesting that they will have access to the PNC.

 

Sent from my D2303 using Tapatalk

 

 

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Jedi Knight

They'll be able to make citizens arrests and hand them over to Scotland Yard? :10_EmoticonsHDcom:  Unless they're for really serious crimes I cant see that happening with the state of play at the moment...

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NCFPA

This isn't new, there is a similar scheme that has been running for years in Totteridge on Barnet Borough. The company is called pro force I believe and recently featured on a documentary.

Believe also another new scheme starting in Essex by a former PC


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ForceHQ

I could of sworn I heard this guy on the radio this morning saying they were looking at private criminal prosecutions instead of handing some things over to the met 

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Radman
33 minutes ago, ForceHQ said:

I could of sworn I heard this guy on the radio this morning saying they were looking at private criminal prosecutions instead of handing some things over to the met 

Which is perfectly legal and arguably inkeeping with traditional values that we hold dear in the UK.

I'm a firm believer the state shouldn't hold the sole monopoly on criminal prosecutions as frankly there are many types of crime which are simply ignored by local authorities and police which deeply impact on communities and corporations alike... The business potential of establishing a professional quasi law enforcement business/charity is a fairly lucrative one depending on the type of service you're going to offer.

Virgin recently privately prosecuted a bloke after conducting its own investigation into the decoding of its cable services - this one man cost the company in excess of a million pounds - it isnt something the local police was all too familiar in dealing with.

The RSPCA another prime example of a private unofficial body carrying out prosecutions of individuals committing crime that neither the police nor the local authorities are interested it... If the RSPCA didnt do it, who would?

The recent rise of 'vigilante' groups targetting peadophiles, as much as we go on about these people 'compromising ongoing investigations' I have yet to hear of a case where this has happened and secondly if we are being honest this is a side of law enforcement where our hands are heavily tied in proactively seeking out these people compared with the options available to the public... Can you imagine the type of income a registered 'peadophile hunting charity' could earn from the public once a few successful prosecutions were attributed to them? Public support and appetite for such a group is arguably huge... Yet no one has clicked onto this yet.

As time has gone on we the police seem to see ourselves as the sole enforcers of law and order within our society and this mindset has led to a breakdown of personal responsibility with not only the public taking action but both public and private bodies taking action to prevent crime... Instead we see professional bodies binning things onto the police as they refuse to take responsibility for it.

Edited by Radman
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obsidian_eclipse

The RSPCA usually have an address of an offender and methods to track them down (alot of complaints are made against domestic and commercial premises) where as criminals on the streets are less fixed. So, you could have a private security firm apprehending these people but there's no guarantee they will either want to stick around or give accurate information to them about who they are. Of course, it is mentioned that My Local Bobby will have access to the PNC network but in the same instance offenders (in my experience) still aren't as forthcoming and its not until your in custody they come forth or they can be properly checked on livescan.

In this regards your left with Security catching someone and still having to involve the police to a great extent. A proportion of offenders quite enjoy giving security the run around and might well enjoy wasting their time and dragging things out as long as possible, especially as they know it's costing someone money.

There's also the whole "Your not the police!" brigade who interfere because of their perception of civil liberties. Of course it's not an offence to waste a security guards time, so they behave as suspiciously as they like, pretending to commit crime or go around with cameras and following them about being a nuisance, which could be annoying to some of the companies clients.

On the darker side, having worked in both the private security sector and the police, people don't take as kindly or behave as well when stopped or arrested by security. I've been in more fights and threatened with more weapons and sharps arresting shoplifters as security than I ever have as a police officer.

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Cathedral Bobby

I tend, as a member of a private police service, to see it as something positive. However, I see the streets as being the sole jurisdiction of HO police forces. Where private police forces work well is where they have police powers but limited jurisdiction, normally based on geographical coverage such as ports, tunnels, cathedrals etc. This allows them the protection of being a constable, a right to carry PSE, and arrangements set out in Memoranda of Understanding with HO forces for management of prisoners, access to PNC etc. Where I think private forces could work well is in the large shopping centres, similar to the Mall Police in the USA (although these are not warranted). These are generally enclosed or limited to a geographical area, well covered with CCTV. If security officers in such establishments were warranted (powers limited to the geographical curtilage of the shopping centre) they could manage and deal with their own shop lifters, public nuisance, and other low level crimes.

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Radman
24 minutes ago, Cathedral Bobby said:

I tend, as a member of a private police service, to see it as something positive. However, I see the streets as being the sole jurisdiction of HO police forces. Where private police forces work well is where they have police powers but limited jurisdiction, normally based on geographical coverage such as ports, tunnels, cathedrals etc. This allows them the protection of being a constable, a right to carry PSE, and arrangements set out in Memoranda of Understanding with HO forces for management of prisoners, access to PNC etc. Where I think private forces could work well is in the large shopping centres, similar to the Mall Police in the USA (although these are not warranted). These are generally enclosed or limited to a geographical area, well covered with CCTV. If security officers in such establishments were warranted (powers limited to the geographical curtilage of the shopping centre) they could manage and deal with their own shop lifters, public nuisance, and other low level crimes.

I think this is what we are missing in the UK.

I see no problem in having more smaller constabularies even private ones just as the US and Canada has, there just needs to be the appropriate oversight.

If we are happy to have Ports, Cathedrals and Tunnels operate their own police with full arrest powers why not a Hospital or Large Buisiness Centre?

We now have landowners buying up entire villages, why should the residents have to be arguably lumbered with the county police when they're arguably willing to pay for a premium service?

So long as its officers were accountable and properly trained I see no problem.

The RSPCA is proof of concept of a uniformed law enforcement outside of state control that actually does work well and is responsible at its job, it exists because of the mass public support and the fact the state seemingly does not want to take ownership of animal welfare issues.

I often encounter a mindset from some custodies when I do have no choice but to arrest a prisoner for a travel fraud offence of "Is this really worth our time?" a custody sergeant the otherday asked why ticketless travel was even a crime, after all his officers didnt arrest fare evaders on the trams... Only it is criminal on the trams there just isnt the appetite or knowledge to deal with it in the local force.

If there is a need for low level enforcement which isnt being done by the local forces then the private sector has and will always attempt to provide that service.

Edited by Radman

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Zulu 22

Frought with danger. Access to the PNC, what about the Data Protection Act. Why is this happening, well I suppose that the Police can blame themselves because of the service that we(You) have been providing to the public on an ever decreasing scale. Do we really want to go down the American route, of CIA, FBI, State Police, Sheriffs Dept's, State Troopers, City Police, Mall Police, Market Police etc, etc. all with different lines of demarcation. Many of the Private forces are watchmen in uniform.

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ForceHQ
4 minutes ago, Radman said:

The RSPCA is proof of concept of a uniformed law enforcement outside of state control that actually does work well and is responsible at its job, it exists because of the mass public support and the fact the state seemingly does not want to take ownership of animal welfare issues.

I have no issue with private prosecutions whatsoever, or the concept of niche constabulary, arguably it makes more sense in some areas, such as hospitals, allowing staff to focus on more niche legislation or hospital specific problems that are not on the top of a LACs problem list. 

However i feel there would need to be greater over site, and that is the issue I have with the RSPCA, the dealings I've had with them not through the job have been less than desirable, in addition to some of the other criticism levelled at them in the media. I would like to see greater support for people and compnays who want to take out private prosecutions, but id also like to see more over site of the whole process.

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Radman
11 minutes ago, Zulu 22 said:

Frought with danger. Access to the PNC, what about the Data Protection Act. Why is this happening, well I suppose that the Police can blame themselves because of the service that we(You) have been providing to the public on an ever decreasing scale. Do we really want to go down the American route, of CIA, FBI, State Police, Sheriffs Dept's, State Troopers, City Police, Mall Police, Market Police etc, etc. all with different lines of demarcation. Many of the Private forces are watchmen in uniform.

Whats wrong with having more local accountability with police dealing with the lower end of crime that blight peoples lives?

The mindset amongst many officers is that the low level stuff isnt worth dealing with but in my opinion arguably it is the most important and fundamental aspect to policing - orderly society anf ensuring the peace is kept.

I actually believe "Little Kingdoms" to an extent are whats missing from policing, no one wants to take ownership of these problems to sort them.

Edited by Radman
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Zulu 22

as I stated quote "Why is this happening, well I suppose that the Police can blame themselves because of the service that we(You) have been providing to the public on an ever decreasing scale".

There are many offences which Policing has seen fit not to bother with. Pedal Cyclists and their total abuse of the road traffic laws, Vehicles who park anywhere.street football and hoards of other minor offences.. There used to be a time when all vehicles need to display lights at night, until they relaxed the laws to, not needed in 30mph zones, and not within 15 meters of a junction. Now you see vehicles parked all over every where, no lights not with the nearside wheels close to the nearside kerb (Parking the wrong way at night).  Vehicles obstructions, minor thefts (Milk for door steps and the like) Shoplifting is still theft and yet many stores prosecute themselves because some forces cannot be bothered due to manpower. If Private Police Forces come in it will be because we have failed in out duties. As we ignore the minor offences we set a form of barrier, when we then move onto not enforcing more serious offences.

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Milankovitch

I don't think the RSPCA are a great example to hold up of what you are suggesting Radman. Some of their more questionable antics are well documented online and they are anything but responsible in many respects. We need less organisations like that, not more of them.

The SSPCA up here are given the same powers as local authorities to deal with animals and have more oversight, it's a far better system than a charity operating without powers and often knowingly overstepping the mark. The aim might be popular with the public but the RSPCA are probably an example of how not to do things.

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Radman
13 minutes ago, Milankovitch said:

I don't think the RSPCA are a great example to hold up of what you are suggesting Radman. Some of their more questionable antics are well documented online and they are anything but responsible in many respects. We need less organisations like that, not more of them.

The SSPCA up here are given the same powers as local authorities to deal with animals and have more oversight, it's a far better system than a charity operating without powers and often knowingly overstepping the mark. The aim might be popular with the public but the RSPCA are probably an example of how not to do things.

I would argue the RSPCA has done far more good than harm as again without them who would have dealt with these cases? No one.

Odd failed prosecution here and there is a drop in the ocean compared to the scandals in policing over the years and much of the online hate towards the RSPCA is geared towards the fact they aren't an official body.

Ive got no problems with the RSPCA having oversight its just that there seems to be very little appetite to give it to them.

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Radman
26 minutes ago, Zulu 22 said:

as I stated quote "Why is this happening, well I suppose that the Police can blame themselves because of the service that we(You) have been providing to the public on an ever decreasing scale".

There are many offences which Policing has seen fit not to bother with. Pedal Cyclists and their total abuse of the road traffic laws, Vehicles who park anywhere.street football and hoards of other minor offences.. There used to be a time when all vehicles need to display lights at night, until they relaxed the laws to, not needed in 30mph zones, and not within 15 meters of a junction. Now you see vehicles parked all over every where, no lights not with the nearside wheels close to the nearside kerb (Parking the wrong way at night).  Vehicles obstructions, minor thefts (Milk for door steps and the like) Shoplifting is still theft and yet many stores prosecute themselves because some forces cannot be bothered due to manpower. If Private Police Forces come in it will be because we have failed in out duties. As we ignore the minor offences we set a form of barrier, when we then move onto not enforcing more serious offences.

 

27 minutes ago, Zulu 22 said:

as I stated quote "Why is this happening, well I suppose that the Police can blame themselves because of the service that we(You) have been providing to the public on an ever decreasing scale".

There are many offences which Policing has seen fit not to bother with. Pedal Cyclists and their total abuse of the road traffic laws, Vehicles who park anywhere.street football and hoards of other minor offences.. There used to be a time when all vehicles need to display lights at night, until they relaxed the laws to, not needed in 30mph zones, and not within 15 meters of a junction. Now you see vehicles parked all over every where, no lights not with the nearside wheels close to the nearside kerb (Parking the wrong way at night).  Vehicles obstructions, minor thefts (Milk for door steps and the like) Shoplifting is still theft and yet many stores prosecute themselves because some forces cannot be bothered due to manpower. If Private Police Forces come in it will be because we have failed in out duties. As we ignore the minor offences we set a form of barrier, when we then move onto not enforcing more serious offences.

Im talking about your more 'ASB' jobs which have been shuffled off.

This is where I feel the advent of PCSOs has been detrimental, in many forces they arent trusted or trained to do anything but patrol and submit intel reports... They'll also issue a Sec 35 Disperal notice but thats about it.

Beat cops will now see these jobs as "PCSO work" and not bother with dealing with them, that coupled with the cuts and lack of support from up on high.

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