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obsidian_eclipse

Police constables David Stamp, Hugh Flanagan and Caroline Irwin face misconduct hearings over deaths of Carl Bird and Malcolm Tindall

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obsidian_eclipse

http://www.bucksfreepress.co.uk/news/15110194.3_police_officers_face_sack_after____leaving_dangerously_icy_road_moments_before_men_killed_in_crash___/#comments-anchor

 

 

Three police officers left a dangerously icy road where a car had crashed and drove away just minutes before two other drivers were killed at the same spot, a misconduct hearing was told today. [/Quote]

 

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obsidian_eclipse

It's a tragic set of circumstances that 2 people died in the same place not long after a similar collision, one that's hard to wrestle with. Whilst officers had 'predicted' in a rather off hand way that another accident could occur it's only in hindsight that any perceivable wrongdoing happened in my opinion, as such, I think it's a futile exercise in scapegoating the officers like this.

We can put all sorts of protections in place after the event and there are a million and one possibilities. I hope the facts are brought to light and the officers can be allowed to move on from this

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SD

Gross misconduct for not asking a partner agency firmly enough to do their job. Nonsense!. 

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Zulu 22
11 minutes ago, SD said:

Gross misconduct for not asking a partner agency firmly enough to do their job. Nonsense!. 

How many times have we been in a similar situation. Ask for certain services and know that they will  materialise too late or, not at all. The only thing that you can do is leave a "Police Slow" sign, if you have one, because you have another job waiting for you to attend.  Also for a double fatal on an icy road it would take a driver driving far too fast for the conditions. I have also known of roads freezing after gritting.  Perhaps someone is looking for a scapegoat.

Should the roads have already been gritted, or had they suffered a re freeze.

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SD

Interesting that that said gritting would not have helped anyway. It's about time cops started to do EVERYTHING to the Nth degree to negate risk. Everything would grind to a halt. 

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Bacon_sandwich

I think we should learn from others mistakes. There is alway more we can do.

Next time I'm at work I'm closing every road I come across.

Roads are dangerous and people might die if I continue to allow people to use them and I will not be held responsible for failing to protect people from themselves.


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VerySpecialConstable

Also we can't order the Highways Agency to do anything!! They prioritise their jobs just like the Police, Fire and Ambulance services do...

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obsidian_eclipse

The problem with hindsight, everyone is wise.

It could may have well turned out to be "A woman dies after response officers refuse to go to a domestic, instead they waited for 4 hours for a gritter lorry"

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SimonT

It seems to be endemic in the police that you can't make a mistake. Not ever.

Or even not do something that you normally wouldn't but something bad happened randomly. So now your in trouble..

And we then seem incapable of retraining or acknowledging that mistakes can happen.. 

So it's disciplinary and sacked. An officers life is destroyed but fundamentally nothing changes to prevent it happening again. Because it was an error. A mistake, which you can't really plan for. But everyone can sit back and be jolly because something has been done. Yay for something. 

Its the same reasoning that gets officers sacked. Imagine if they were disciplined and went in to do something bad. The person who only disciplined them would get stuck on, and probably sacked just in case. 

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ParochialYokal

I don't think that these Officers should be sacked but I also don't think that what happened can be dismissed as one of those things.

 

There were a series of errors, which may have resulted from the Officers not having the specific skills or training to investigate an accident in such circumstances. In addition, they may have lacked the confidence to insist on certain measures are put in place. Yes, you can't order the Highways Agency to grit a road but you can tell them that there is a high probability of a further accident taking place and the onus is then on them.

 

The issue is perhaps not with the Officers themselves but with the organisation- there was a lack of a protocol or operational procedure in place to cover such a situation. That is the lesson learned. If there is a crash as a result of ice in the future then there there are clearly a number of factors that must be taken into consideration as part of a risk assessment.

 

If I were to compare the police to the NHS, there are several unnecessary deaths each day in the NHS but significantly less per year as a result of police inaction or mishandling of incidents. In the NHS, organisations learn and individuals face proportionate action. In the police service, organisations rarely learn and individuals face disproportionate action.

 

On a personal level, I have spent hours guarding breakdowns, fallen trees or other debris to protect road users until such a time as the road became safe. I'm surprised that the Officers just drove off and left the scene. But I am not calling for their blood,

 

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SD

Based on that logic everytime it's icy the police should shut off ALL the roads. Traffic lights out? close the road. Winter sun dazzling? Close the road.

The issue was with the driver not driving to the conditions. Also they DID ask for gritters but it was declined AND it's been agreed that even if they did turn out it would've made NO difference. So the issue is how firmly they asked for a resource from a partner agency.

Finally, what if they did block the road but gritters still refused to attend. Then what?

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HazRat
2 hours ago, ParochialYokal said:

On a personal level, I have spent hours guarding breakdowns, fallen trees or other debris to protect road users until such a time as the road became safe. I'm surprised that the Officers just drove off and left the scene. But I am not calling for their blood,

 

57 minutes ago, SD said:

Based on that logic everytime it's icy the police should shut off ALL the roads. Traffic lights out? close the road. Winter sun dazzling? Close the road.

The issue was with the driver not driving to the conditions. Also they DID ask for gritters but it was declined AND it's been agreed that even if they did turn out it would've made NO difference. So the issue is how firmly they asked for a resource from a partner agency.

Finally, what if they did block the road but gritters still refused to attend. Then what?

I've done this many times and will gladly wait for the local authority for that road to turn up, examine it and either remedy the issue or take responsibility for the risk. Never had a problem yet and I've closed some major routes at key times.

 

Reading the report it does say that the HA felt that the ice would have melted by the time they get there. I assume they're weather experts and know all about micro climates and other such road related issues. I'm not certain that Highways Agency cover the A413?

The officers have got a hard task. On the one hand they're being told it will melt before the glitter gets there, so they'd probably be inclined to open the road as keeping it closed is going to get them criticised... and probably stuck on. Where was the Sgt or the Inspector? They should be backing their officers up.

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Cathedral Bobby

If only we could find the time between being social workers, mental health nurses, society punch bags, and having responsibility for anything else that doesn't neatly fit into someone else's job description, we could pressure other agencies into doing their job properly. :06_EmoticonsHDcom:

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Jimbo26

A similar incident in my force, mud not ice and a slightly longer time lapse between collisions.  Chief refused to accept the IPCC's findings and would not discipline the officers. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/mobile/10343918

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Cathedral Bobby
22 hours ago, Jimbo26 said:

A similar incident in my force, mud not ice and a slightly longer time lapse between collisions.  Chief refused to accept the IPCC's findings and would not discipline the officers.

How comforting to hear about a Chief refusing to take action following IPCC investigation. The IPCC is well past its sell by date. Some of their investigations leave a foul odour of 'hang em out to dry' hypocrisy

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