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obsidian_eclipse

Neighbours fighting over property

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obsidian_eclipse

This is loosely based on a real situation.

 

You are called to a flat in regards to a disturbance which is taking place, there's little information initially apart from there being items thrown from the upstairs flat into the street below.

 

Upon arrival you find it is fairly quiet but there's various smashed household goods and appliances littered about the exterior of the property. Inside the flats there is a communal stairwell. It is also littered with glass, plastic, ceramics and various broken appliances which look as though they have been thrown down the stairs.

 

2 parties make themselves known to you at this point. It transpires that one of the flats upstairs has vacated his property and moved elsewhere. The two parties present both produce messages from the previous occupant which promise they can have whatever they like from his old abode as he no longer has any need for them, that the door is unlocked and they can help themselves but when they finish lock up and put the keys through the letter box.

 

Allegations are made from both parties that the other was steeling their chosen items. A disturbance ensued in which there was a good deal of harsh words exchanged, as well as an allegation that someone had been hit around the head with a baking tray and then a period of chaos where they exchanged throwing different household objects from the abandoned property at each other, down the stairs and out the windows in an attempt at denying the other parties from taking them for themselves.

 

It is fairly calm now apart from the mess. How would you proceed from this point?

 

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SD

Tell them to go away (to prevent further BoP), lock the front door and stick in a s39 crime (only offence disclosed)  then write it off.

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Reasonable Man

Record at least two assaults - both parties report that other threw objects at them so those are assaults. Whether S.39 or with injury depends on whether any injuries are caused. Maybe the 'someone' who was hit with the tray was not one of the two, it's not clear. If so then another crime for that assault.
Then assess the whole circumstances before deciding on how to proceed.


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chaos4122

If there are no injury's and no other witness, then offence cannot be reasonably verified as both parties have a vested interests in removing the other....

Make enquires with the owner to rule out any burg. Get rid of one or both parties to prevent a bop.

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Reasonable Man
If there are no injury's and no other witness, then offence cannot be reasonably verified as both parties have a vested interests in removing the other....

Make enquires with the owner to rule out any burg. Get rid of one or both parties to prevent a bop.

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It's got nothing to do with whether any offences can be verified (by who anyway?). The circumstances as reported amount to a crime so record a crime. Ever heard of the NCRS?


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chaos4122

It's got nothing to do with whether any offences can be verified (by who anyway?). The circumstances as reported amount to a crime so record a crime. Ever heard of the NCRS?


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Yes I have.. and it's the police job to be able to see if there is any credibility in the report.

What is initially reported to the call handler isn't always what the final result is.

I am finding more and more that I am turning Up to jobs that have been crimed "over the phone!" And having to file them as no crime after speaking to the informant in more detail.

With the above job, it is easily plausible to deal with it as a breach of the peace as either "harm was done or likely to be done"...


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Reasonable Man



Yes I have.. and it's the police job to be able to see if there is any credibility in the report.

What is initially reported to the call handler isn't always what the final result is.

I am finding more and more that I am turning Up to jobs that have been crimed "over the phone!" And having to file them as no crime after speaking to the informant in more detail.

With the above job, it is easily plausible to deal with it as a breach of the peace as either "harm was done or likely to be done"...


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In the case in point the information has been gleaned at the scene, so no 'criming' over the phone.
It is not the police's job to see if there is any credibility in the report before recording it as a crime. It is the police's job to record it as a crime unless there is credible evidence to the contrary immediately available.


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chaos4122

It is not the police's job to see if there is any credibility in the report before recording it as a crime.


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Of course it's a police officers job to determine if a crime has been committed before recording it.

If it's obvious at scene that the person making this allergation is lying and you can do all the necessary enquires, then why would you crime it.

Saying that... I would try and get a witness statement from the original caller and lock them both up for affray. :)



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Reasonable Man


Of course it's a police officers job to determine if a crime has been committed before recording it.

If it's obvious at scene that the person making this allergation is lying and you can do all the necessary enquires, then why would you crime it.

Saying that... I would try and get a witness statement from the original caller and lock them both up for affray. _.30b4ea0b68e2ea004d2604a44f9efaff

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Your first paragraph is just wrong - read the HMIC reports on crime recording. The police should believe the victim and record the crime.
Your middle paragraph covers it - if it is obvious at the scene. Or in the words of the HOCR/NCRS there is credible evidence to the contrary. But this must be immediately available. If not and you delay recording the crime while you hunt around to try to find some reason to 'doubt the veracity of the complaint' or other unhelpful phrase.
What you must not do is 'investigate to record', which is one of the criticisms of HMIC in its reports on the failing of the police in crime recording over the last three years.


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SD

I think there's a sensible middle ground. If a basic enquiry can be made there and then to confirm or not if the offence took place, such as CCTV, then it should be made prior to the crime submission.

In this case the crimes identified (IMO just the one) should be submitted. Whether there's an investigation or not is another matter.

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chaos4122
I think there's a sensible middle ground. If a basic enquiry can be made there and then to confirm or not if the offence took place, such as CCTV, then it should be made prior to the crime submission.
In this case the crimes identified (IMO just the one) should be submitted. Whether there's an investigation or not is another matter.



I totally agree... These has to be a common sense approach when it comes to dealing with these kind of jobs and if it's in the public interest to pursue a prosecution.

There are many different ways to deal with the same set of circumstances, for example if you wanted to go down the crime route, lock them both up for burg dwelling. Crime it as such, then make the enquires to do with the mobiles and the old occupant.

As long as you can adhere to JPLAN and are able to have a good regional for your actions then there shouldn't be any issues.

I agree that if you cannot rule out a crime at scene, then it should always be recorded.



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chaos4122

This is loosely based on a real situation.

 




Just out of interest. How was the incident dealt with?

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obsidian_eclipse



Just out of interest. How was the incident dealt with?

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Just out of interest. How was the incident dealt with?

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Slightly differently. Upon arrival there were initially lots of counter allegations and the parties were in drink. Lots of smashed up appliances littered around the stairwel and some things thrown out the windows. It all seemed to be part of a bigger issue and divisions between the neighbours in the flats.

As we began to take an account from the mouths of those involved it became clear that there were disputes going back months. After they had time to calm down I began making enquiries, about how things came to be broke and what had happened, it dawned on them that the arguments over possession of blenders and bakeware weren't the most civil way to behave. The allegations of assault were then less than forthcoming.

Of course, we acted professionally and showed no bias in our handling of it. I know some might try and dismiss a job and others might insist on pursuing criminal elements, there's perhaps a multitude of ways of dealing with it. We took reports from the tenants about some of the historic problems and suggested some form of mediation might be helpful in resolving things looking forwards if they all agreed (there's a scheme in place with the local council at present whereby 'if the parties are willing' a member of the housing team and a PCSO will meet with them all).

Pocket book statements were taken to ensure that everyone was in agreement with the proposed resolution as well as the versions of events from them. The incident log was updated to reflect that no one present were wishing to make complaints of a criminal nature and it was a civil dispute - albeit one which had been considerably loud and antisocial. It was also logged that a plan would be put in.place with the housing department of the council in effort to ensure that there wasn't a repeat of the problem.

The aim was to ensure that it was resolved with a long term fix. A PCSO would also be tasked with visiting a few times and make sure it was continuing as it should.

The empty property was secured and they agreed to clear up the mess on the stairwel and outside. Another chance was given to ensure they had told us everything and if they were happy with what was to take place, that I would deal with any allegations seriously and was prepared to do so without prejudice (ensuring that I wasn't trying to sway them into not complaining if they wished to or causing bias). They refused to implicate anyone in what had happened any more than arguing, so were happy with that.



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Reasonable Man

So what crimes were recorded?


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chaos4122
So what crimes were recorded?


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I'm guessing none... Turns out it's civil

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