Growley

ERPT/Level2 (split from Driving courses)

33 posts in this topic

A couple of years back the idea was floated that response teams had to be ~70% Lv2 trained in case of force mobilisations, what with ERPT being the large scale 24hr department on boroughs. I take it this never happened then?

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Not as far as I know. Some teams have loads, some don't have many. They basically let anybody who wanted to do it do it, getting rid of the 'out of probation' rule and to be fair, it has worked because I hardly ever get AID now, but I think they go to SNT as a first resort before ERPT.

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Using Hazrat's example of training all traffic officers with all the core traffic skills because you never know what unit will be available and can't hold certain ones back, surely the same rationale should be applied to borough.

Countless incidents have shown that only permitting a very small amount of taser units out means that when a taser worthy incident occurs there's no tasers available.

Well, we all know that it doesn't work. What we need is for higher levels to accept it doesn't work and resolve it.

I feel we've moved this conversation onto more of a met conversation but I imagine other forces have similar issues, albeit not as bad as being banned from getting PNC due to lack of budget.


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49 minutes ago, Klaus said:

Using Hazrat's example of training all traffic officers with all the core traffic skills because you never know what unit will be available and can't hold certain ones back, surely the same rationale should be applied to borough.

Countless incidents have shown that only permitting a very small amount of taser units out means that when a taser worthy incident occurs there's no tasers available.

Well, we all know that it doesn't work. What we need is for higher levels to accept it doesn't work and resolve it.

I feel we've moved this conversation onto more of a met conversation but I imagine other forces have similar issues, albeit not as bad as being banned from getting PNC due to lack of budget.


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PNC lack of Budget ? Not heard about this before....is it for real ?

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5 minutes ago, Klaus said:

Using Hazrat's example of training all traffic officers with all the core traffic skills because you never know what unit will be available and can't hold certain ones back, surely the same rationale should be applied to borough.

Countless incidents have shown that only permitting a very small amount of taser units out means that when a taser worthy incident occurs there's no tasers available.

Well, we all know that it doesn't work. What we need is for higher levels to accept it doesn't work and resolve it.

I feel we've moved this conversation onto more of a met conversation but I imagine other forces have similar issues, albeit not as bad as being banned from getting PNC due to lack of budget.


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Ideally that'd be the case. Everyone on ERPT would be taser and IRV trained, because it makes sense for response team cops to get to where they need to be, and be able to defend themselves when they get there.

The only difference is, specialist OCUs are smaller and tend to have a stronger argument for courses because they're necessary to fulfilling their role, whereas borough is expected to muddle along either way.

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PNC lack of Budget ? Not heard about this before....is it for real ?

Nobody from our OCU is allowed on a PNC course. If you apply to go on a course your request will be rejected and if you apply again you'll receive an email banning you from applying again for the rest of the year. This has been the case for 18 months approx and in that time I do not know of anyone who has managed to get a place on a course. Even officers working on CPU or other places where's it's basically a requirement.


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Thanks @Klaus, what a sorry state of affairs.

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On ‎17‎/‎03‎/‎2017 at 17:57, Growley said:

A couple of years back the idea was floated that response teams had to be ~70% Lv2 trained in case of force mobilisations, what with ERPT being the large scale 24hr department on boroughs. I take it this never happened then?

That didn't happen. Level 2 is a voluntary skill and they didn't want to lose people who didn't want to be level 2. I would also add, that it's not great from a team perspective too. I've seen almost an entire team leave a Borough before on a mobilisation, leaving very few officers behind. That wasn't good for anyone, as just because there is a level 2 demand, the usual calls don't stop coming in.

 

On ‎17‎/‎03‎/‎2017 at 18:01, JulietAlpha1 said:

Not as far as I know. Some teams have loads, some don't have many. They basically let anybody who wanted to do it do it, getting rid of the 'out of probation' rule and to be fair, it has worked because I hardly ever get AID now, but I think they go to SNT as a first resort before ERPT.

The out of probation rule should have stayed to be honest. Too often carriers have at least one probationer who in my opinion, shouldn't be anywhere near a level 2 op.... they might think they do how to police, but they don't.

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The out of probation rule should have stayed to be honest. Too often carriers have at least one probationer who in my opinion, shouldn't be anywhere near a level 2 op.... they might think they do how to police, but they don't.


Yes but most L2 aid is usually nothing or overkill, I would probably say probationers are more aware of legislation and powers than other officers so might be good to have some fresh Hendon blah out and about on aid. I don't see any reason why probationers cannot do it with at least a year in ( I got it after a year) if anything the only thing L2 has taught me is don't do anything wrong or you buy the coffees and let the skipper and guv get a sandwich first. L2 is not a specialist skill, unless full cordons and tactics are put into place which I have to admit in doing L2 before handing it in only happened once and I had my fair share of aid over the years. 99% of the time was driving or standing around.

I would say putting a probationer in the area car is worse than putting them on a L2 aid.




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21 minutes ago, Policey_Man said:

The out of probation rule should have stayed to be honest. Too often carriers have at least one probationer who in my opinion, shouldn't be anywhere near a level 2 op.... they might think they do how to police, but they don't.

I got mine in probation... :lol: and to be fair for a time a lot of our serials were made up of probationers except the driver/sergeant. All those probationers are now out of probation and provide the 'experience' on the bus as the new probationer L2's come through. Not ideal, I'll agree, but it's never done me any harm and I think it's good that there are a large amount of L2's because it stops a small number getting shafted too much.

And as @NCFPA said, most of it's driving, sitting, foot patrol and coffee anyway.

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The out of probation rule should have stayed to be honest. Too often carriers have at least one probationer who in my opinion, shouldn't be anywhere near a level 2 op.... they might think they do how to police, but they don't.

I agree in a sense, but considering what a low level skill Lv2 public order is, and the fact we're always short of volunteers, I also don't see the harm in it. You're supposed to be recommended as suitable by a supervisor anyway; the people who do it and shouldn't are doing it because of poor supervision.

Bring back the shield run and you'll see the people who have a bit of mental strength and physical fitness. It's not perfect, but when I see borough aid carriers now I can't help but think most of them wouldn't pass.

As far as force mobilisations emptying borough response teams goes (strangely my phone wouldn't quote that part of your post) it is unfortunately what it is. If you're on nights and you're the only public order trained officers about, then the borough will have to make do with what they've got. If it's not a night shift though, duties should be doing their best to source people from across the borough.

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34 minutes ago, Growley said:


I agree in a sense, but considering what a low level skill Lv2 public order is, and the fact we're always short of volunteers, I also don't see the harm in it. You're supposed to be recommended as suitable by a supervisor anyway; the people who do it and shouldn't are doing it because of poor supervision.

And there is the issue. Some supervisors won't say no as it's easier to say yes and hope the problem goes away and doesn't cause them any problems.

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6 minutes ago, HazRat said:

And there is the issue. Some supervisors won't say no as it's easier to say yes and hope the problem goes away and doesn't cause them any problems.

The same reason why so many people finish their probation who really shouldn't.

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55 minutes ago, Growley said:


I agree in a sense, but considering what a low level skill Lv2 public order is

I think suggesting it as a low level skill isn't quite right. Yes, it's often sitting around doing very little, but when it goes wrong, it has the potential to go very wrong.  Just ask PC Simon Harwood.

Anyway, whilst this would be an interesting subject to discuss, we're drifting off topic here.

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I think suggesting it as a low level skill isn't quite right. Yes, it's often sitting around doing very little, but when it goes wrong, it has the potential to go very wrong.  Just ask PC Simon Harwood.
Anyway, whilst this would be an interesting subject to discuss, we're drifting off topic here.


But that can be said for routine policing, anyone can make an error of judgement on routine calls just as much on aid. To deem it a specialist skill when It's a few hours of cordons and throwing bricks at a training centre, it might be a specialist skill in your world but it's no where near a specialist skill like driving, taser, firearms, surveillance is in my world.

You can't raise a point and then say we're going off topic when people disagree with you, you turn up to any TSG base and tell them L2 is a specialist skill you will have 1-3-18 laughing at you!


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