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Make detective work attractive again to stop numbers decline, says forum head

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3 minutes ago, NCFPA said:

 


Apologies my post was more of a reference to the Met which has its own detective recruitment and workload issues. It would appear your a response officer in the counties who pretty much carry everything ?


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Yes absolutely everything.  We are the only unit who can't say "no" even if we are the least skilled and haven't got time. Hence how some rapes, burglaries,  robberies,  complex frauds etc end up with a response officer and are: surprise! surprise!  Badly investigated. 

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Less money for what I would say is a specialist role (20% unsocial allowance), no overtime, pointless requests from CPS and ridiculous case load (Met Police) no wonder they are 700 short. I will just drive from job to job and go home with nothing to worry about at the end, much easier.


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On my old borough CID got the lion's share of the overtime.

They also got a whole lot more time at home on weekends than response team.

It's a specialist role in a sense, but barely. It's more of a straight swap; one generalist uniform role for a generalist non-uniform one.

Don't get me wrong, I can see why it's an unattractive role in the current state of things, I just don't think paying DCs more is necessarily fair on the response team PCs who have to maintain a multitude of equally challenging skill sets for even less recognition.
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1 hour ago, Prae said:

Shirts, trousers, jackets, ties, cuff links and shoes. Soon adds up!

Jeeez, I don't think I've ever seen a police officer with cuff links! We're lucky to see a DC in a suit jacket, let alone cuff links!

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Whilst slightly off topic, why don't cid wear uniforms?

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10 hours ago, Prae said:

Don't get me wrong, response is equally as challenging in a different way. Indeed I left response to be a DC because I was failing my victims by not being allowed time to deal with their crimes effectively and I didn't like it. But CID deserves a small extra payment just for the sheer fact that you can be called in on any day off to deal with a prisoner you've circulated or because CPS have an "urgent" enquiry for you and you're pretty much compelled to go on and do it.

This sounds like a really bad way to run a CID department. Rest days mean rest days. Not always 'be on standby to come to work' days. Your force needs to set up a solution which allows work to be handed over and picked up by other officers, rather than compelling you to come into work. I'm not sure what the regs are like around this, but I would hope and expect that they'd support you in having sufficient time off and not being brought into work at the last minute for silly stuff like CPS memos or suspects who have been circulated for months been nicked.... our CID officers would unlikely to come in under those circumstances.

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3 minutes ago, SimonT said:

Whilst slightly off topic, why don't cid wear uniforms?

Because some victims and witnesses feel much more comfortable when not faced with an officer in uniform. 

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12 hours ago, MerseyLLB said:

'Hardest job in policing.'

It's very tough, granted, but due to the CID crisis most response teams are now at similar breaking point with caseloads with the obvious extra strain of being tied to a radio and 999 calls.

Demand currently dictates that wherever you shift the resources they are going to be over worked - increase the CID teams taking officers from response and they (CID) will have to take on more crimes. The only answer is more boots on the ground.

Most forces now have a crime allocation policy which has all but the most specialist offences falling to uniformed officers who are not detectives or PIP level 2 and really don't have the time to do their caseload justice.

I am carrying around half the number of crimes in Kent as a response officer that the CID on Merseyside used to carry - but due to response duties I only have around a fifth of the time at most to actually deal with those offences. Throw in shift work which drags out enquiries over many weeks and we have the crisis point.

Cue HMIC popping their heads in to state the bleeding obvious and tell us uniformed investigators that our investigations aren't as good as CID!

@MerseyLLB I think you sum this up quite nicely.... spot on with the issue about more boots on the ground. More response officers mean better initial investigations and better handover packages, which will help CID in the long run. It means those officers who want to get released move on to CID can and will and it means that uniformed officers carrying crimes will have more time to investigate them because there are other people to help answer the immediate calls. More police officers is ultimately what is needed to help address the problem at all levels.

I'm not sure financial remuneration is the key to solving the issue.... because then firearms officers will want it for their specialist skills, then traffic will want it, then response will say that their skill is being jack of all trades and will want it.... then everyone will get it.

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This sounds like a really bad way to run a CID department. Rest days mean rest days. Not always 'be on standby to come to work' days. Your force needs to set up a solution which allows work to be handed over and picked up by other officers, rather than compelling you to come into work. I'm not sure what the regs are like around this, but I would hope and expect that they'd support you in having sufficient time off and not being brought into work at the last minute for silly stuff like CPS memos or suspects who have been circulated for months been nicked.... our CID officers would unlikely to come in under those circumstances.

Well we don't actually have a CID. We work the same shift pattern as the response shift we're aligned to and sit in the same office picking up all PIP2 jobs from response and that come in over the phones. If you're OIC for a case and something needs doing with it you'll get a call and be expected to come in, there's no handing it over. Numbers wise our team has about 5 DC's and the same number of IO's whereas the response side have about 28 officers. You do the maths with staff vs. jobs.

From reading a lot of responses here it appears a lot of forces allocate work differently. A lot of the jobs you guys are thinking should be allocated to a DC are clear cut PIP1 jobs. Fraud, burglary, sexual assaults, indecent images to name a few are all pretty straightforward PIP1 jobs that any cop can interview for and deal with so long as you're trained in investigative interviewing.
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2 minutes ago, Prae said:


Well we don't actually have a CID. We work the same shift pattern as the response shift we're aligned to and sit in the same office picking up all PIP2 jobs from response and that come in over the phones. If you're OIC for a case and something needs doing with it you'll get a call and be expected to come in, there's no handing it over. Numbers wise our team has about 5 DC's and the same number of IO's whereas the response side have about 28 officers. You do the maths with staff vs. jobs.

From reading a lot of responses here it appears a lot of forces allocate work differently. A lot of the jobs you guys are thinking should be allocated to a DC are clear cut PIP1 jobs. Fraud, burglary, sexual assaults, indecent images to name a few are all pretty straightforward PIP1 jobs that any cop can interview for and deal with so long as you're trained in investigative interviewing.

I don't understand how your Fed is allowing you to be called off duty like this?

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2 minutes ago, Prae said:


Well we don't actually have a CID. We work the same shift pattern as the response shift we're aligned to and sit in the same office picking up all PIP2 jobs from response and that come in over the phones. If you're OIC for a case and something needs doing with it you'll get a call and be expected to come in, there's no handing it over. Numbers wise our team has about 5 DC's and the same number of IO's whereas the response side have about 28 officers. You do the maths with staff vs. jobs.

From reading a lot of responses here it appears a lot of forces allocate work differently. A lot of the jobs you guys are thinking should be allocated to a DC are clear cut PIP1 jobs. Fraud, burglary, sexual assaults, indecent images to name a few are all pretty straightforward PIP1 jobs that any cop can interview for and deal with so long as you're trained in investigative interviewing.

Trouble is many response officers don't have the time or the right training to interview for sexual assaults and indecent images. I didn't realise how poor some interviews where until I did my Tier 2 interview course. 

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Whilst slightly off topic, why don't cid wear uniforms?

I'd suggest it's a relic of the time that detectives did their own surveillance and ran their own CHIS assets so wearing a uniform was counter productive.

Also the reason@funkywingnut mentions about it being a barrier with some victims and witnesses. You'll also find victims thinking their crime is being taken more seriously if a detective is dealing with it (rightly or wrongly).

I'd happily be a DC and wear uniform still, costs nothing, no ironing and I don't have to worry which suit I've worn on what days!

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Posted (edited)

57 minutes ago, Prae said:

I'd happily be a DC and wear uniform still, costs nothing, no ironing and I don't have to worry which suit I've worn on what days!

There's good old CID, focused on the big, important stuff as usual.... :P

Edited by Policey_Man
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7 hours ago, Policey_Man said:

There's good old CID, focused on the big, important stuff as usual.... :P

You clearly don't understand the CID struggle of suit and shoe choice, that and a guarantee you will leave your notebook in the wrong jacket pocket at least once every few shifts :)

 

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13 hours ago, Prae said:


Well we don't actually have a CID. We work the same shift pattern as the response shift we're aligned to and sit in the same office picking up all PIP2 jobs from response and that come in over the phones. If you're OIC for a case and something needs doing with it you'll get a call and be expected to come in, there's no handing it over. Numbers wise our team has about 5 DC's and the same number of IO's whereas the response side have about 28 officers. You do the maths with staff vs. jobs.

From reading a lot of responses here it appears a lot of forces allocate work differently. A lot of the jobs you guys are thinking should be allocated to a DC are clear cut PIP1 jobs. Fraud, burglary, sexual assaults, indecent images to name a few are all pretty straightforward PIP1 jobs that any cop can interview for and deal with so long as you're trained in investigative interviewing.

Whilst according to CoP PIP guidance you are correct I think compartmentalising that misses the point.

Investigation quality can often be dictated by resources and time. 

A CID officer provides a better investigation because for the robbery he has the time to conduct a victim profile. He completes a map of the victims route. He completes a CCTV trawl of that route, seizes the footage and views it. This provides a vehicle registration which leads to a suspect. The CID circulate the suspect for arrest by response. Once the prisoner is in custody the CID conduct several interviews. Having seized the suspects phone they manage to conduct cell site analysis placing the suspect at the scene of the robbery. Matching ANPR data with cell site data the detective discovers that the suspect is placed at 4 recent robberies with similar MOs. After some financial investigation the CID officer discovers a business lockup registered to the suspect and swears out a pace warrant. Response execute the warrant with the tactical team and numerous exhibits are located. The job ends up going cross border and after a lengthy investigation they secure a 10 year prison sentence and clear up 5 robberies.

The response PC picks up his 15th crime in his pot. This is a robbery with no injury. The PC has several hate crimes in his pot and 2 domestics which take precedence let alone the call demand from 999. The PC gets a quick MG11 from the Ip. The PC emails the local authority CCTV and they haven't got footage of the offence. The PC then goes to more 999 calls and picks up another two jobs in his pot. The next day he goes to a 136 job and is tied up all day. The next day is a constant obs on custody. The next day the officer is the diary car and picks up another 3 crimes. The officer then goes on rest days. On his first day back he is prisoner processor for the day. 

A week has passed. He dips back into the robbery. He fires off an email to Intel and they throw a name into the hat. The PC can't find anything in his crime report to link the suspect. He submits a crime filing report to his Sgt. He then goes to his next job of the day. He asks for time to work on his crimes the next day and files yet more crimes as undetected with his Sgt bringing him back down to 15 crimes in the pot.

Of course the investigative options are open to both - DC doesn't have extra powers to the PC but the role difference dictates a wholesale different investigation and to suggest otherwise is a fallacy (in many county forces anyway).

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You're right in much of what you say and the difference is training and experience for the most part.

The time side of things may be true in forces that have a dedicated CID but where I am the first 4 days of each set of shifts are prisoner days where you'll get back to back prisoners to deal with and pick up a good number of crimes. The last two are enquiry days where you can get some bits done but they are usually 1500x0000 or 1700x0300 so not a great deal you can do.


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