Cathedral Bobby

Is it time for a Royal Commission on Policing

28 posts in this topic

34 minutes ago, Zulu 22 said:

So your POPT's are like our Specials then. Is that what you are saying?

I can't think why you'd make a remark like that unless you were either wildly out of touch with the modern police, trolling for a bite, or both. 

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Royal Commissions are not there to make changes, but to look at issues and perhaps make recommendations - they are as much politically motivated as they are an excercise to make it look like a topic is being taken seriously.  The 1-15 or so points of the OP are great topics but a RC would only look at a select few of those at a time and not all of them.  If it is controversial then the question of who will lead it becomes a real hot potato - thinking of the floundering abuse enquiry that has yet to take form for example.  
Perhaps the Op list could be reduced to 2-5 key topics otherwise it would never end.  Discussing the minutiae of the role or value of something like PCSOs is so off the key issues that it already shows how divisive a RC could be.    Its rather like a PC or similar getting 15 mins with the HMIC and complaining about the vehicles or squeaky doors - totally wasted opportunity away from the core factors from which these all emanate.  Even something like a Root Cause Analysis and  Ishikawa diagram  (Sorry just had to include them)  would take a dedicated team a long time  to deliver.... and thats just to try and identify the issues and not even touch the solutions

 

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 I agree, PCSO's are a complete waste of money, thankfully in the met they are reducing them to one per ward, most have gone on to be PC's

 

It might sound like I am PCSO bashing but since 2002 no one has managed to convince me what they do that justifies a salary of £30K

 

 

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 No one has convinced me that the MET has ever recruited, trained nor deployed PCSOs in a manner that represents value for money.

 

The failure of the MET to secure best value is a failure of the MET itself and not the concept of PCSOs. Look at the BTP, for example, who have certainly got their bang for the buck.

 

MET PCSOs are a joke. Hopefully, we agree on that point.

 

MET PCSOs are pretty much the calibre of council parking attendants, so they are hardly candidates that feed into a pipeline for recruitment to the Regulars, unlike other forces. They have a poopy uniform and rarely present themselves in a cutting imagine worthy of respect (i.e. They have 'traffic warden' written all over them). They have neither been trained nor deployed to deal with basic policing functions that PCSOs from other forces deal with in volume on a day to day basis.

 

Let's not bash PCSOs. Let's bash the MET.

 

Yes- MET PCSOs are a failure. That is a failure of the MET and not the concept of PCSOs. To not see beyond that represents a MET-centric attitude.

 

 

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3 minutes ago, ParochialYokal said:

 

No one has convinced me that the MET has ever recruited, trained nor deployed PCSOs in a manner that represents value for money.

 

The failure of the MET to secure best value is a failure of the MET itself and not the concept of PCSOs. Look at the BTP, for example, who have certainly got their bang for the buck.

 

MET PCSOs are a joke. Hopefully, we agree on that point.

 

MET PCSOs are pretty much the calibre of council parking attendants, so they are hardly candidates that feed into a pipeline for recruitment to the Regulars, unlike other forces. They have a poopy uniform and rarely present themselves in a cutting imagine worthy of respect (i.e. They have 'traffic warden' written all over them). They have neither been trained nor deployed to deal with basic policing functions that PCSOs from other forces deal with in volume on a day to day basis.

 

Let's not bash PCSOs. Let's bash the MET.

 

Yes- MET PCSOs are a failure. That is a failure of the MET and not the concept. To not see beyond that represents a MET-centric attitude and perspective.

 

 

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Council parking attendants enforce laws and generate revenue. I've yet to see a Met PCSO do anything meaningful. Mainly dropping leaflets or stopping someone for cannabis then calling a PC to come and deal with it.

Comparing them to traffic wardens is being complimentary and I am not a fan of traffic wardens...

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They are not much better in Provincial Forces. As for BTP it is not all that long ago since they were merely Railway Security Guards with very limited powers like PCSO'S.  Very similar to the Airports Police, although further back in time. 

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On 15/02/2017 at 17:05, Zulu 22 said:

So your POPT's are like our Specials then. Is that what you are saying?

Really? 

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Police Officer Part Time in the PSNI sounds rather denigrating. I was asking because I have no knowledge of how they are employed as I have never even been to Northern Ireland.

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They are not much better in Provincial Forces. As for BTP it is not all that long ago since they were merely Railway Security Guards with very limited powers like PCSO'S.  Very similar to the Airports Police, although further back in time. 

 

You do speak a load of old tosh.

 

There have been many historic railway constabularies (with full powers in relation to railway mattes) that were merged into the BTP, which took its form 70 years ago.

 

At what point were Railway Police ever just a 'bunch of security guards'? Certainly, not during living memory.

 

 

 

 

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5 hours ago, ParochialYokal said:

You do speak a load of old tosh.

There have been many historic railway constabularies (with full powers in relation to railway mattes) that were merged into the BTP, which took its form 70 years ago.

At what point were Railway Police ever just a 'bunch of security guards'? Certainly, not during living memory.

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The railways companies did in fact have Constables which made up their Private Police Forces with powers limited to the Railways Property and a few other private places. There are not a Police Force which comes under the Home Office Control.

They gained more powers under the Transport Police Act 1994, and yet more powers under the Railway Transport Act 2003. That was because their powers although huge in many respects applied only to Railways Property.  I think it was when Phillip Hammond was a minister that he made legislation permitting the Railways Police BTP" to become armed.

There is a history in many places but have been moves afoot to merge with Home Office Forces.  Quote:

Proposed mergers[edit]

Although the British Transport Police is not under the control of the Home Office, and as such was not included as part of the proposed mergers of the Home Office forces of England and Wales in early 2006, both the then London mayor Ken Livingstone and then head of the Metropolitan Police Sir Ian Blair stated publicly that they wanted a single police force in Greater London. As part of this, they wished to have the functions of the BTP within Greater London absorbed by the Metropolitan Police. However, following a review of the BTP by the Department for Transport, no changes to the form and function of the force were implemented, and any proposed merger did not happen.[90]

There are also ongoing proposals backed by the Scottish government for BTP's Scottish division (D Division) to be merged with Police Scotland. Scotland's Justice Minister has stated: "It's been the Scottish government's view that [transport policing] would be better if it was integrated into Police Scotland given that it would sit alongside our national police service." However, criticism of this proposal has risen due to lack of consultation including the effects on the future of BTP as a force as well as the continued specialist nature of railway policing should the merger go ahead. The proposal came about after it was recommended by the Smith Commission on further devolution & included in draft legislation with the UK Government stating "how rail transport is policed in Scotland will be a matter for Scotland once the legislation is passed". BBC News report that "BTP could become part of Police Scotland by the end of 2016".[91]

Maybe this will be considered by any Royal Commission. But we know what tends to happen with various reviews, just think Sir Tom Winsor as an example.

 

 

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Maybe this will be considered by any Royal Commission. But we know what tends to happen with various reviews, just think Sir Tom Winsor as an example.

Some good things and some not so good things.


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10 hours ago, Reasonable Man said:


Some good things and some not so good things.


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Still trying to think what good things Sir Tom Winsor proposed.

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Still trying to think what good things Sir Tom Winsor proposed.

Perhaps you should read both reports then.
Oh and then remove the blinkers that anything about changing things from when you used to be a cop is a bad thing.


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What is needed is a fundamental review of policing and its structure to meet the demands of the 21st century. I know in my initial post I suggested quite a lot of areas to consider, but matters must not be reviewed in isolation. For example PST, routine arming, national road policing, a national infrastructure force, HO force structures are all major areas but are also very much connected, and any fundamental changes to any one could have major impacts on the others.

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